Sanders, again.. - advise most appreciated!

[FestitaMakool]

Hi gals and guys!

I need some buying advise. On the contrary to a lot of you I don’t own too many (FT) sanders, yet..

I’ve got a RO 90 with delta pad, a Bosch 150 Turbo and delta pads on my Makita and Fein multitool.
I’m now nearing more finishing work some places in my house, paint removal/smoothing are first out. But my decision is towards more fitting and carpentry work later on.

So first on my list (and practically in the shopping cart) is the ES-ETSC 125 (Set) I like wireless a lot. But, it will be used with dc most of the time.

Second is a decision between RTSC 400 and DTSC 400. I really like the versatility of the rectangular pad (as I do have enough delta options when the situation calls for it) As do also have the manual sanding pad HSK-A 80x130 that accepts the same paper as the RTSC.

Then to the more difficult decision. I have quite a few challenging surfaces to sand. A variety of mouldings, door frames, doors etc. see photos below.

I’ve had a look at the LS 130 linear sander, it screams buy me - I’m the solution!.
But, a second thought has been: To modify a custom pad for the LS 130 to fit the RTSC and run it like you would with the LS 130. Yes, I’ll have the random and sideways movement, but moving it in strokes straight forward and backwards might work to even the painted surface for re-paint.
I could also finish manually with the custom pad.
It would be very nice to know if any of you have any experience in this regard!

I did forget; generally I haven’t been especially fond of sanding to put it mildly, but the Festool dust collection have been a game changer for me, now sanding is actually enjoyable, sort of  [scared] That’s why I’m looking to buy a collection of sanders, that will be used after initial restoration in the house, the ones to keep for woodworking projects. [wink]

Grateful for all your suggestions and experiences!

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[six-point socket II]

Hi Stig!

The custom pads for the LS 130 are placed on the sander to form them through friction/abrasion. I don't see that working out with anything else than linear movement.

And speaking of the actual sanding later on, I don't think it will be a great experience having to work against the machine/ natural movement of the machine all the time. Plus it will wear and tear on your customized/profiled pad.

Also there are many profiles/pads available already with the LS 130. Even a scraper (491199).

So if it's more than one door and the staircase, I'd say go for the LS 130 and all of the accessories you might need.

If it's only one staircase and one door, I'd say the hand sanding blocks and sponges are your friend.

It's also a question if you're going to sand down to bare wood, then fill the gaps, primer, paint. Or if you just want to sand it down a bit and paint over it.

But RTSC/DTSC + LS 130 custom pad = I don't see that working out/ easing the work. And what about the dust extraction you've come to love, I don't think you get the holes of the LS 130 pad aligned with the RTSC/DTSC pattern.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[AlexThePalex]

I like most Festool sanders I get my hands on, but I totally did not like the LS130. Too much a one trick pony and very slow at that. I'm faster doing all those profiles in your pictures by hand, with a scraper and sandpaper. I got rid of the LS130 again and it was one of the few Festools I wasn't sorry about to see it go.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Thanks Oliver and Alex!
I’ve heard and read mixed experiences with the LS 130.. and it’s a + $600 tool here. (Haven’t even seen one pre-owned for sale, except from Sweden)

It certainly would have loads of meters to cover. There’s 6 doors (only half of them that need thorough sanding) One largish room with crown mouldings in the roof and the doors has nice moulding surrounds, and there’s the staircase. And even more of mixed surfaces. Reason is that on most crown mouldings and door mouldings I would like to sand “in situ” as workmanship is excellent and the wood used are also first class compared to buying new stuff that’s not the same as these old mouldings. Trying to remove this will most certainly be impossible without damage.

Paint remover and later hand sanding is also considered.

 

[Cheese]

So first on my list (and practically in the shopping cart) is the ES-ETSC 125 (Set) I like wireless a lot. But, it will be used with dc most of the time.

Festita...you could pick up the ETSC 125 full kit. It comes with a mains adapter so you'd use it just like the corded version and attach it to a vac. If you need to go mobile just trade the mains adapter for a battery and swap out the hose for a dustbag, the best of both worlds.  [smile]

I'd consider using stripper in the corners as that seems to be where most of the ugliness is. The corners are also going to be the most difficult to access with any sander. Strip the corners, clean then up nice and then feather the corners into the rest of the molding.

FWIW...I have the LS 130 and with the scraper Oliver mentioned, I removed most of the old ceramic tile & mastic from a bathroom. Just providing some more justification to purchase that sander.  [big grin]

If you order the DTS or DTSC, I'd suggest you also order a replacement pad as they do have a tendency to wear out the tip of the pad.

 

[FestitaMakool]

So first on my list (and practically in the shopping cart) is the ES-ETSC 125 (Set) I like wireless a lot. But, it will be used with dc most of the time.

Festita...you could pick up the ETSC 125 full kit. It comes with a mains adapter so you'd use it just like the corded version and attach it to a vac. If you need to go mobile just trade the mains adapter for a battery and swap out the hose for a dustbag, the best of both worlds.  [smile]

I'd consider using stripper in the corners as that seems to be where most of the ugliness is. The corners are also going to be the most difficult to access with any sander. Strip the corners, clean then up nice and then feather the corners into the rest of the molding.

FWIW...I have the LS 130 and with the scraper Oliver mentioned, I removed most of the old ceramic tile & mastic from a bathroom. Just providing some more justification to purchase that sander.  [big grin]

If you order the DTS or DTSC, I'd suggest you also order a replacement pad as they do have a tendency to wear out the tip of the pad.

Thanks Cheese! I figured that you might had encountered a LS 130  [big grin] It’s qualities is not for the average project, so it’s pending for me. The dealer I’m buying from are having a campaign very soon, and I’ll watch out for a good pricing on this one.

I’m aware of the pads on delta sanders, they wear quickly if one’s not careful. I’m therefore leaning towards the RTSC, and maybe a DTSC later on since I’ve got three other options to cover the inner corners (and they are cheaper to replace)

I was thinking of the same ETSC kit as you mention, with the included mains adaptor, but the new edge sander attachment seems very handy for the applications I’ll be doing now. This new kit comes with batteries (Bluetooth ones) but strangely not with the mains adaptor - it could just be pricing to not hit too high of a recommended retail price.

A 125 ETS EC is also tempting, with a 150 pad as well. Too bad this can’t be compatible with the ETSC battery version. The ability and freedom to pick up a cordless sander with only a dust bag for those small finishing jobs is invaluable.

 

[ear3]

It can be difficult to get the LS 130 to work on delicate profiles, and there's a limit to how sharp you can get the DIY custom profile before it starts to blend the elements together.  My experience is that the custom profile works best for crown moulding type applications where the profile elements tend to be larger and the transitions between them smoother, as opposed to the casing and panel moulding you're dealing with that have quite a few tightly spaced, small elements. And as has already been said, it doesn't really help you on those corners.  There are miracles that the LS 130 can work when other sanders don't, but I'm not sure it will work better on the projects you've pictured than attacking them with a mix of hand sanding and multi-tool profile pads. 

 

[CarlsonCarpentry]

Also keep in mind, if you get the etsc kit that includes the batteries and adapter you can pick up the rtsc or dtsc bare sander for the same price as the dts or rts.
I bought the kit thinking I would use the adapter a lot more but the batteries have been phenomenal. They last a long time and charge quickly.

 

[aloysius]

I once had a couple of Duplex sanders (LS130) to use for the exact task you require.  I found them unbearably slow even with the the coarsest Brilliant papers available.  There's only a few opportunities to reposition the papers on the profiled pads, which rapidly clog with paint residues.  They were probably the most useless sanders that I've ever used, at least for this particular task anyway.  I've also noticed that the foam backing in the profiled pads tends to break down fairly rapidly, literally crumbling into dust within a year or two!

If you want to remove all paint altogether to maybe varnish the raw wood surfaces, then you're in for an extremely time consuming task.  You can remove all unfixed wood - doors, windows etc. - & get them commercially dipped.  It's actually much easier to further sand & paint doors etc. on a pair of trestles than in situ.

All the fixed surfaces:  architraves, banisters, skirts etc. can be treated with a combination of techniques.  You can apply tinned or bottled paint stripper.  More than one coat/treatment may be necessary for heavily repainted surfaces.  Follow up with some nice sharp Bahco scrapers, available with a variety of Tungsten Carbide profiles, that will both remove paint residues whilst retaining & protecting the crispness of moulding profiles & edges.

You'll need to "wash" stripper residues away from the surfaces with a stainless steel pot scrubber pad & tap water before re-coating.

A cheap hardware-store hot air gun will sufficiently soften paint hiding inside the fiddly corners & profiles that can likewise be scraped away. 

Some flatter painted surfaces may actually scrape better "dry" without any chemical or heat treatment.

As a final finish to your treated surfaces you can carefully sand the profiles with plain, cheap painter's paper rolls in a couple of (medium & fine?) grits wrapped around appropriately sized wooden dowels (for the concavities) & a plain cork block for the flats.  Be careful not to round over or "soften" any angular interfaces.

Any type of hand block will be faster & probably kinder to sharp edges too.  Mirka makes some nice extracted ones for Festool, but my favourite size - 80 x 133mm - is puzzlingly unique to Festool.  Using Abranet HD & a pad protector will ensure long life & successful results.

Of coarse machine sanding of planar surfaces is also a possibility.  Standard papers, even the "paint specialist" stearate coated ones, will rapidly clog with paint residues.  Don't allow either the paint or paper to heat up & soften through friction.  It's best to sand heavily coated surfaces in colder weather.  You could also try alternatives:  I've had good results with mesh abrasives.  Mirka's Abranet Ace & HD are my favourites.  Maybe the Festool equivalent is OK too.  I've not tried it, but I note that grits coarser than 80 aren't available, making progress too slow in my opinion.

PROPER Delta sanders will access internal corners well.  Not those oscillating Fein-type sanding attachments, which reciprocate radially rather than orbit, & rapidly clog.  The best Deltas that I've used are the Festo Deltex DX93E & the Bosch PDA/GDA family.  The Festo is slightly more aggressive, the Bosch (with a variety of extensions, fingers & profiles) more versatile.  Despite protestations top the contrary, Festool's RO90 DX is not a particularly useful or successful alternative to a "standard" Delta.  In fact, it's a rather poor sander all round.  Mesh abrasives are available for Deltas, & are my preferred option.  Pad protectors will obviously enhance pad life.  The best Deltas are now only available used.  Unfortunately, those still available new are nowhere near as effective as the older designs were/are.

Coarser orbital sanders will work better on thick paint.  An orbital with say a 5mm eccentric radius  (RS100 C-Q) for a half-sheet, or a smaller Mirka DEOS with 3mm eccentricity, which is a noticeable 20% more agressive than others' equivalents.  A Rotex type tool from Festool, Bosch, Makita, Rupes or Kress will be faster still, as will an 8mm orbit Mirka DEROS.

For me personally I've found that a "combined attack" seems to work best, with no single technique being suitable for all surfaces.  Good luck.

 

[FestitaMakool]

It can be difficult to get the LS 130 to work on delicate profiles, and there's a limit to how sharp you can get the DIY custom profile before it starts to blend the elements together.  My experience is that the custom profile works best for crown moulding type applications where the profile elements tend to be larger and the transitions between them smoother, as opposed to the casing and panel moulding you're dealing with that have quite a few tightly spaced, small elements. And as has already been said, it doesn't really help you on those corners.  There are miracles that the LS 130 can work when other sanders don't, but I'm not sure it will work better on the projects you've pictured than attacking them with a mix of hand sanding and multi-tool profile pads. 

I’ve foreseen this, and you confirm that it’s downside is the sharp and narrow profiles. I was initially thinking that I would choose the wider part of the profiles, and hand sand the narrow parts. It’s it’s custom profile pads that intrigues me. I’ll have to reconsider closely.

To all: I was going to remove paint chemically for the most part with a scraper, and even a heat gun. But this method always leaves a surface to be desired.. it will need sanding before repainting. This is where I thought the LS 130 would come in handy and efficiently. Most likely most surfaces will be repainted. The only place to consider bare wood finish are some parts of the staircase.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences!

[member=9481]aloysius[/member] - Thanks for your in depth considerations. There’s a lot of techniques to attack, and I believe that I’ll encounter a few of those you mention. The downside using bottled or chemical paint removers is that most (available here) requires rinsing with water to remove all residue and neutralise the surface. So doing that in situ requires a lot of thorough washing with cloths or use a “dry” version which can leave residue. I’ve used that also before with good results on a boat interior with oil and lacquer. However this wood is softwood, albeit high quality, but totally different than hardwood. Considering that I’ll order the RTSC a delta sander will only be used in the inner corners; are the DTSC so much better that it should be seriously considered?

I’ll have a close look on the deals to come later this week, and I have decided that I’ll only buy the LS 130 if the pricing is extremely good.

As mentioned also [member=70289]CarlsonCarpentry[/member] I’ll order the new kit version of the ETSC with the angle adaptor, possibly another battery and the RTSC as basic kit. Maybe I’ll then hold on on the mains adaptor?
A Rotex 125 or 150 is on the list. (I have a Bosch 150 turbo wich does a good job, then there’s the dust collection on the FT ones [tongue])

Thanks a lot all!

 

[Cheese]

[As mentioned also [member=70289]CarlsonCarpentry[/member] I’ll order the new kit version of the ETSC with the angle adaptor, possibly another battery and the RTSC as basic kit. Maybe I’ll then hold on on the mains adaptor?

That's pretty much what I did Festita...I ordered the ETSC 125 Plus which gave me 2 batteries, a dust bag and a charger for the basement.

Then when the Festool Recon Site was still in action, I ordered the DTSC 400 Set which gave me 2 batteries, a dust bag, the 110 volt adapter and an extra charger for the garage.  [smile]  That approach has worked well, as I'm never at a loss for power for either of the sanders whether inside the house or outside the house.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Cheese, it seems like the sanders can run long stretches then. Well, my girlfriend is soon to be held a crash course in sanding, so I’ll guess I’ll spend on batteries instead. I know for a fact that in the situations I’ll be in for a while a cordless sander will be reached for more often than a corded, and it will always be ready with a dust bag to grab.

I have thought of more to come soon, a A RO 125, ETS EC 125 with 150 pad, or Mirka Deros wich comes with both 125 and 150 pad and has a 5mm stroke. It has received many great reviews in both performance and handling. If this was a couple of years ago, I would just have got a 125 sander and that’s it. With dc and Festool it’s new thoughts. Maybe an old dog can learn new tricks [big grin]

 

[Cheese]

Cheese, it seems like the sanders can run long stretches then.
I know for a fact that in the situations I’ll be in for a while a cordless sander will be reached for more often than a corded, and it will always be ready with a dust bag to grab.

Maybe an old dog can learn new tricks [big grin]

Festita...the Festool sanders do have a long run time. If you think about it, I very seldom sand for longer than 15-20 minutes non-stop. At some time you shut down the sander to feel the finish, to look at the finish, to change sandpaper or just to take a drink of water. Any time you stop, the batteries replenish themselves to a small degree. The 45 minute run time quoted for the sanders that is bandied about is the continuous time that the sanders are used non-stop. The only item I've ever used non-stop for that length of time is a hammock.  [big grin]  A cordless sander and 1 battery is not an option. A cordless sander, several batteries, a local/convenient charger and possibly a mains converter is a very viable option.

 

[aloysius]

You're right about not using sanders for extended periods.  Those battery sanders are going to be about 50% heavier than the very best corded equivalents, meaning they're going to unnecessarily uncomfortable to use overhead or at a stretch when you're working on all those in situ architectural fittings & mouldings.

It doesn't seem too bad at first, but after several ,hours of intermittent sanding overhead it's gonna hurt.  Been there, done that.  For me - also a severe Carpel Tunnel sufferer - light is absolutely right.

 

[AlexThePalex]

doing that in situ requires a lot of thorough washing with cloths or use a “dry” version which can leave residue.

Welcome to painting!  [smile]

I do this all the time. Use an ammonia solution instead of just pure water.

Considering that I’ll order the RTSC a delta sander will only be used in the inner corners; are the DTSC so much better that it should be seriously considered?

Yes, the DTS is so much better. I don't understand why people would choose the RTS when the DTS gives you a lot more options and comfort in working.

I also don't understand the love for a cordless sander. I simply detest working with a sander that's not connected to a vac. A passive dustbag is utter junk and still very dirty. I could only justify a cordless sander for those odd places where it is too difficult to bring a vac. Which is like 0,001 % of all places.