Sanding to a Polish video on Youtube

[Dan Clermont]

Hello Everyone,

I was lucky enough to attend the Festool Fantasy Camp in Vegas this past weekend with other FOG'ers.

One of my main objectives was to come back with an understanding on how to get a polish using the Rotex.

This board was a roughsawn board which we rotexed at 80 grit and then sanded / polished / burnished all the way up to 4000 grit

After we hit 4000 grit we were gonna throw on some wax and buff with a sheepskin but that just didn't work out

Sanding to a Polish with the Rotex

Dan Clermont

 

[PeterK]

Thanks for the videos Dan. What did you mean by "we were gonna throw on some wax and buff with a sheepskin but that just didn't work out"? That doing that caused problems or that you ran out of time?
Pete

 

[Dan Clermont]

Hi Peter,

It was late in the day (6 PM) and we had other stuff to cover before our 7PM dinner reservation so we moved on to the MFS.

Can't be late for dinner! ;D

Dan Clermont

 

[PeterK]

Thanks. Trying to understand any issues with polishing as I want to try this. Glad it was dinner, not a polishing procedure problem! 

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
Just so you know, this forum has a plugin that allows YouTube videos to be viewed right in a post.  Just use the [attachimg=1] button and enter the URL for the video.  It's easy!

Here's the video Dan posted:


Matthew

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi all,

Just one work of caution while viewing the video.  My friend Bryan S. moves the sander over this work piece very quickly.  This works fine on some woods but can cause scratch marks on darker or lighter woods.  I find a much slower, more deliberate motion is less prone to residual marks.  While they did not have time to wax and buff that piece after burnishing it for this video, once you do that you will be amazed at how beautiful most woods are. 

I often make what I call "reflection panels" where I book match a nicely grained wood, then sand and burnish as shown in the video.  Then I shoot a seal coat or two, sand again, then shoot two or three coats of water based conversion varnish.  While the finish looks very smooth at this point, once cured I sand again from 220 up through 4000.  At this point the finish has a high luster, but still is a bit clowdy.  Three felt pads and three grits of polishing compound later and the finish looks like polished marble.  It never fails to bring out the oh-ahs.

Jerry

 

[cneville101]

Hi all,

I often make what I call "reflection panels" where I book match a nicely grained wood, then sand and burnish as shown in the video.  Then I shoot a seal coat or two, sand again, then shoot two or three coats of water based conversion varnish.  While the finish looks very smooth at this point, once cured I sand again from 220 up through 4000.  At this point the finish has a high luster, but still is a bit clowdy.  Three felt pads and three grits of polishing compound later and the finish looks like polished marble.  It never fails to bring out the oh-ahs.

Jerry

Thanks for your comments - but, you second paragraph brings up a few questions...

1.  Do you do this type of sanding for all parts, or just for table tops and decorative panels? 

2.  What papers/grits do you use going from 220 thru 4000 (the video goes through Brilliant 220 - 400, then Platin 500 - 4000).  Do you use Crystal or Rubin (when would they be appropriate?).

3.  What do you shoot as a seal coat?

4.  What grits of polishing compound do you use (manufacturer would be helpful as well).  Do you use a certain felt pad?

Thanks - I hope this is appropriate to ask on this thread...

Chris

 

[tallgrass]

what is up with the power plug on the vacuum?

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi Chris,

1) just when I want a highly polished finish.  That is normally just for table tops and decorative pieces like the reflection panels, but the same techniques can be used anywhere.

2) Brilliant and/or Rubin working up 120, 240, 400, 800, 1200, then platin 1000, 2000, 4000, then standard Festool felt pads with auto rubbing compounds coarse, medium & fine.  4) I have used several different makes and find little difference between brands.

3) I use Target Coatings Universal sealer 8800 for the seal coats and then Target Coatings conversion varnish for the build and top coats.  Take a look at the manual I wrote on how to select and apply water based finishes at www.targetcoatings.com > user manual.

The key to doing a good job is to wait for the finish to cure for a couple of days and then use care along the edges to keep from burning through.  Use light pressure while polishing as heat will build up quickly and if you burn the surface it is all over and you get to sand down and start over.  Practice on a test piece or two first.  Take your time and you will quickly get the hang of it.  Just warn your family before you start that you may suffer from irrational exuberence the first time you see the deep gloss come up.

Jerry

Hi all,

I often make what I call "reflection panels" where I book match a nicely grained wood, then sand and burnish as shown in the video.  Then I shoot a seal coat or two, sand again, then shoot two or three coats of water based conversion varnish.  While the finish looks very smooth at this point, once cured I sand again from 220 up through 4000.  At this point the finish has a high luster, but still is a bit clowdy.  Three felt pads and three grits of polishing compound later and the finish looks like polished marble.  It never fails to bring out the oh-ahs.

Jerry

Thanks for your comments - but, you second paragraph brings up a few questions...

1.  Do you do this type of sanding for all parts, or just for table tops and decorative panels? 

2.  What papers/grits do you use going from 220 thru 4000 (the video goes through Brilliant 220 - 400, then Platin 500 - 4000).  Do you use Crystal or Rubin (when would they be appropriate?).

3.  What do you shoot as a seal coat?

4.  What grits of polishing compound do you use (manufacturer would be helpful as well).  Do you use a certain felt pad?

Thanks - I hope this is appropriate to ask on this thread...

Chris

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan,

I didn't notice that you had a video camera in LV.  What did you use for the videos?

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[Dan Clermont]

My still camera has a video mode. I had to compress that video cause it was 500 Meg in size

Also have one on the OF 2200 but that will require some editing and I haven't been able to secure engouh computer time to edit and render the video

Dan Clermont

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan,

Thanks.  I thought that might be the case, but the videos were pretty nice quality so I wasn't sure. 

There an old saw (pardon the pun) about a "... picture is worth a thousand words".  After watching the polishing video, I think sometimes a video can be worth a thousand pics!

Brice has done some very nice work on his web site using multimedia - video, pics, drawings, and animated drawings.  Your videos enhance the message that videos should play a big part in explaining a process.   

Since many videos will be published using YouTube or it's sisters, there are some new video cameras that use 30P mode.  When downsized to YouTube format, the resulting videos are higher quality than those taken in 24P or 60i.  I wanted to get one, but they just started shipping in early April.  There are some nice video options on the horizon.

Regards,

Dan.   

 

[John Langevin]

The one element of the process that differs from the "accepted practices" that have been discussed here in the past concerning the Rotex; switching back to "Rotary Mode". In the context of buffing or compounding this makes sense; has anyone here done it that way? I thought the conventional wisdom had been to switch to Random Orbit mode after around 100 grit and continue with thatmode throughout the remaining grits/compounds.

 

[cneville101]

Jerry,

Thanks for the reply... great info.  I just have an additional question or two...

1.  What does burning the surface actually look like? 

2.  What are the pre-cursors to look for to avoid going too far? 

3.  Is this only a problem with the polishing compounds or can it be done with the sandpaper as well?  Can the

    a.  I have the RO150 and the ETS 150/3 -  I have been using the ETS for all work over a 400 grit to avoid being too aggressive.  Can the ETS burn the surface? 

4.  Lastly, I have been refinishing a table top that I made a few years back (I had just gotten my first Fuji HVLP sprayer & didn't really know how to use it).  The old finish was WB lacquer... but the top was getting more use/abuse than I originally thought it would, so I am putting on Behlen's Rock Hard.  In the process of trying to level the surface after the coat, a couple of cloudy patches showed up (looked like unfinished wood or sanding dust -  but it is under the finish).  I'm thinking that this is a result of not waiting long enough for the finish to cure.  Is that a fair guess?  If I wait a couple of days, will this fix itself - or do I need to start over?

Thanks again

Chris

Hi Chris,

1) just when I want a highly polished finish.  That is normally just for table tops and decorative pieces like the reflection panels, but the same techniques can be used anywhere.

2) Brilliant and/or Rubin working up 120, 240, 400, 800, 1200, then platin 1000, 2000, 4000, then standard Festool felt pads with auto rubbing compounds coarse, medium & fine.  4) I have used several different makes and find little difference between brands.

3) I use Target Coatings Universal sealer 8800 for the seal coats and then Target Coatings conversion varnish for the build and top coats.  Take a look at the manual I wrote on how to select and apply water based finishes at www.targetcoatings.com > user manual.

The key to doing a good job is to wait for the finish to cure for a couple of days and then use care along the edges to keep from burning through.  Use light pressure while polishing as heat will build up quickly and if you burn the surface it is all over and you get to sand down and start over.  Practice on a test piece or two first.  Take your time and you will quickly get the hang of it.  Just warn your family before you start that you may suffer from irrational exuberence the first time you see the deep gloss come up.

Jerry

 

[Dan Clermont]

Dan,

Thanks.  I thought that might be the case, but the videos were pretty nice quality so I wasn't sure. 

There an old saw (pardon the pun) about a "... picture is worth a thousand words".  After watching the polishing video, I think sometimes a video can be worth a thousand pics!

Brice has done some very nice work on his web site using multimedia - video, pics, drawings, and animated drawings.  Your videos enhance the message that videos should play a big part in explaining a process.   

Since many videos will be published using YouTube or it's sisters, there are some new video cameras that use 30P mode.  When downsized to YouTube format, the resulting videos are higher quality than those taken in 24P or 60i.  I wanted to get one, but they just started shipping in early April.  There are some nice video options on the horizon.

Regards,

Dan.   

I dunno about 30P. I'd be concerned about editing and compatibility with current frame rates which have been globally accepted for years. Then yet again, I deal more with Broadcast and Film  cameras so who knows what the consumer world has developed / marketed.

We have used 23.98Psf (24P) and 59.94i (60i) at work for years and they are widely accepted in the Film and TV world. Sure hope clients don't start bringing us 30P cause that will get pretty confusing

On my camera I can select 640 x 480, 320 x 240 and also frame rates of 30 or 15. It ain't Hi Def and the picture can get grainy in the blacks but it sure beats lugging around a digital camera and a video camera

Dan Clermont

 

[Jerry Work]

1) the finish will get soft then tear into a swirl.  Near an edge you will see a line forming around an irregular shaped oval.  That means you burned through the top coat and are into the coat below.  With some WB materials you can overshoot the surface and the new layer will "melt" into the previous coat and that area will  not show much.  On others you are screwed and have to sand the whole surface down and start over.  Best bet on edges is to work from the center and only take the outside edge of your sander/felt pad/polishing bonnet past the edge with a fairly quick in and out motion.  The edge is vulnerable because it is so easy to tip the sander/buffer/polisher off of the flat plane as it goes over the edge.  That tipping motion puts far more stress on the edge than on the surfaces around the edge.  If you work in and out with only a bit of the outer edge of the pad passing over the edge you are much less likely to tip.

2) Best bet as you are learning is to periodically touch the surface you are working on.  If it is too hot for comfort it is about to burn so move on and work elsewhere for a while.

3) The smaller the RO stroke is the less likely to burn up to a point.  If you put much downward pressure with very fine grits (like 800 to 1200) heat can build up quickly.  No need for that.  Lighten up as you go to finer grits.  Also the foam backed mesh like materials stay much cooler.

4) Most such cloudy patches in WB materials are caused by too wet and thick a coat.  It will clear up over time but can take up to a month to fully go away.  Best bet is more lighter coats and wait longer between coats.  When you mix chemistry as in overcoating one product with a different product you never know what kinds of chemical reactions you might "enjoy" so testing in an inconspicuous place is a good idea.  If the previous product is one that cross links and cures via an exothermic process, once it fully cures the next coat of WB finish will seldom effect it.  If you put anything with one of the ...lines in it (very aggressive aromatic solvents) they can attack whatever is below.  If you are in doubt try scuffing the original surface for mechanical adhesion, then apply a barrier coat of WB shellac.  Let that dry for a full day.  Now you can overcoat with most any WB material.  I don't use Behlen's Rock Hard so can't comment on its characteristics.  From what you describe, I would probably use a pre cat WB conversion varnish over the WB lacquer.  That is the product I use most often on horizontal or wear surfaces because of its chemical resistance.  For really hard wear try the WB polycarbonate urethanes.

Jerry

Jerry,

Thanks for the reply... great info.  I just have an additional question or two...

1.  What does burning the surface actually look like? 

2.  What are the pre-cursors to look for to avoid going too far? 

3.  Is this only a problem with the polishing compounds or can it be done with the sandpaper as well?   Can the

     a.  I have the RO150 and the ETS 150/3 -  I have been using the ETS for all work over a 400 grit to avoid being too aggressive.  Can the ETS burn the surface? 

4.  Lastly, I have been refinishing a table top that I made a few years back (I had just gotten my first Fuji HVLP sprayer & didn't really know how to use it).  The old finish was WB lacquer... but the top was getting more use/abuse than I originally thought it would, so I am putting on Behlen's Rock Hard.   In the process of trying to level the surface after the coat, a couple of cloudy patches showed up (looked like unfinished wood or sanding dust -  but it is under the finish).  I'm thinking that this is a result of not waiting long enough for the finish to cure.  Is that a fair guess?  If I wait a couple of days, will this fix itself - or do I need to start over?

Thanks again

Chris

Hi Chris,

1) just when I want a highly polished finish.  That is normally just for table tops and decorative pieces like the reflection panels, but the same techniques can be used anywhere.

2) Brilliant and/or Rubin working up 120, 240, 400, 800, 1200, then platin 1000, 2000, 4000, then standard Festool felt pads with auto rubbing compounds coarse, medium & fine.  4) I have used several different makes and find little difference between brands.

3) I use Target Coatings Universal sealer 8800 for the seal coats and then Target Coatings conversion varnish for the build and top coats.  Take a look at the manual I wrote on how to select and apply water based finishes at www.targetcoatings.com > user manual.

The key to doing a good job is to wait for the finish to cure for a couple of days and then use care along the edges to keep from burning through.  Use light pressure while polishing as heat will build up quickly and if you burn the surface it is all over and you get to sand down and start over.  Practice on a test piece or two first.  Take your time and you will quickly get the hang of it.  Just warn your family before you start that you may suffer from irrational exuberence the first time you see the deep gloss come up.

Jerry