SawStop sues Bosch

[Carl Prentiss]

And, unsurprisingly, SawStop's response is:
LINK

Edit: Sorry Seth. Wasn't seeing the big picture when I posted. [bite tongue]

 

[mwildt]

He got quite a few patents to protect so this could be interesting. He got 113 patents if my search got them all. Didn't read them all but a few stood out as defining 'a brake system' where Bosch might be more of 'changing the location of a rotating axis' aka swinging the blade out of the way. Might be more meat (no pun intended) on the 'flesh detection mechanism' patent. Lawyers will be able to buy a new mini van after this for sure.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=Gass&FIELD1=INNM&co1=AND&TERM2=Stephen&FIELD2=INNM&d=PTXT

 

[Kev]

I hope sausage man fails ... I don't like the way he does business!

I'll also maintain from my previous rants that the saw stop mechanism only protects people from what are essentially unsafe table saw usage methods anyway. Unsuspected kickback and flying offcuts are the real danger to people that do observe proper table saw safety and the Sawstop does NOTHING to deal with these issues ... what it does do is potentially lull the user into thinking they are "safe" ... so very wrong.

To me .. here we have a person who is trying to make as much money as he can, not a person trying to make a reasonable living but also further safety .. and I don't like people that are driven by their own greed.

BTW, I'm not trying to bag the saw itself ... some people seem to love them and I'm happy for them.

 

[Paul G]

A business trying to protect their intellectual property and market share...I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!

 

[flair woodworks]

I'll also maintain from my previous rants that the saw stop mechanism only protects people from what are essentially unsafe table saw usage methods anyway. Unsuspected kickback and flying offcuts are the real danger to people that do observe proper table saw safety and the Sawstop does NOTHING to deal with these issues ... what it does do is potentially lull the user into thinking they are "safe" ... so very wrong.

What about the well-designed blade guard/splitter with anti-kickback pawls and instructional owner's manual?

 

[canadamike]

Hi, I've been reading similar threads on the pros and cons about the sawstop technology for a few years. I own an industrial model sawstop, its a very good saw. In the past I have done cabinetry work and now am working on custom homes, not cabinetry but the build.

Recently we had a very experienced redseal carpenter have an awful accident with a table saw. The thing is, only a day before, he was talking about the new sawstop technology and how it would be great to have this available on jobsites. Of course all the other guys laughed. That's just the culture of some crews.

This young guy is now not working for at least the next 6 months, and likely longer. He swears on the technology now.

Anyone with experience working on a full build, will know how fast things sometimes move. I personally think the technology is not necessary in the shop, where things are are controlled, the lighting is good, there is a flat floor etc. But its pretty important in an environment where things get done quickly, and you're on a construction site.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[Kev]

I'll also maintain from my previous rants that the saw stop mechanism only protects people from what are essentially unsafe table saw usage methods anyway. Unsuspected kickback and flying offcuts are the real danger to people that do observe proper table saw safety and the Sawstop does NOTHING to deal with these issues ... what it does do is potentially lull the user into thinking they are "safe" ... so very wrong.

What about the well-designed blade guard/splitter with anti-kickback pawls and instructional owner's manual?

Yes and I imagine they're looking to sue anyone that has anything remotely like that too ... give me a well made euro slider any day.

 

[jonny round boy]

I can't imagine that Bosch would develop their technology (which I understand works slightly differently to SS) and then release it to market without a very large number of very well paid lawyers going over every inch of SawStop's patent, and deciding they were in the clear.

Just another example of SawStop's money-grabbing attitude, IHMO.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Honestly I don't think sawstop is really interested in the workers saftey it's all about making money through law suits if anyone comes up with thier own saftey device. Must admit I won't be funding them.

 

[AlexThePalex]

When Vovlo invented the seat belt they let everybody use their technology freely because they thought public safety was much more important than their short term financial interest.

Now Tesla Cars made all their technology free to use to make sure electric cars can mature quicker and an infrastructure to support them can be created.

But not Stephen Gass , he calls patents the corner stone of American innovation, but is doing nothing but stopping innovation on this important safety feature. By keeping the saw intact, Bosch has already improved on the concept, making them cheaper and thus more available and thus creating a situation that can only lead to increased use of this type of saws.
 

Honestly I don't think sawstop is really interested in the workers saftey it's all about making money through law suits if anyone comes up with thier own saftey device. Must admit I won't be funding them.

Indeed, through their marketing practices they show making money is much more important to them than workers' safety. They say they are very concerned, and then their actions tell another story. I have to strongly disagree with this mentality.

I'll also maintain from my previous rants that the saw stop mechanism only protects people from what are essentially unsafe table saw usage methods anyway. Unsuspected kickback and flying offcuts are the real danger to people that do observe proper table saw safety and the Sawstop does NOTHING to deal with these issues ... what it does do is potentially lull the user into thinking they are "safe" ... so very wrong.

Not true, sure kickback is the biggest danger, but when that piece of wood goes flying lots of unexpected things can happen. There are many documented accidents where kickback caused the hand or arm to be pulled into the blade. 

Safe practice makes a lot of difference, but not ALL the difference.

 

[benwheeler]

Hilarious thread.. No-one's getting upset about Festool not sharing around their many patents before they expire, I notice. Since when is it news for a company to vigorously defend what it perceives as a patent infringement? To me, Sawstop and Festool are peas in a pod; both selling high quality, innovative tools at a premium, and both copping flack from those who don't see their value. And neither of them is a charity.

 

[jonny round boy]

Hilarious thread.. No-one's getting upset about Festool not sharing around their many patents before they expire, I notice. Since when is it news for a company to vigorously defend what it perceives as a patent infringement? To me, Sawstop and Festool are peas in a pod; both selling high quality, innovative tools at a premium, and both copping flack from those who don't see their value. And neither of them is a charity.

That's true to an extent, but Steve Gass tells the world he's only doing it to improve safety & not for the money, which is blatantly untrue.

And re the patent infringement, Bosch's system works differently (and, in my eyes, better) and although I'm no expert on US patents and law, I'd bet that Bosch isn't infringing on his patents, it's just him throwing his toys out of the pram because someone's made something better & he wants a slice of the pie...

 

[benwheeler]

Hilarious thread.. No-one's getting upset about Festool not sharing around their many patents before they expire, I notice. Since when is it news for a company to vigorously defend what it perceives as a patent infringement? To me, Sawstop and Festool are peas in a pod; both selling high quality, innovative tools at a premium, and both copping flack from those who don't see their value. And neither of them is a charity.

That's true to an extent, but Steve Gass tells the world he's only doing it to improve safety & not for the money, which is blatantly untrue.

And re the patent infringement, Bosch's system works differently (and, in my eyes, better) and although I'm no expert on US patents and law, I'd bet that Bosch isn't infringing on his patents, it's just him throwing his toys out of the pram because someone's made something better & he wants a slice of the pie...

I suppose that either they have infringed the patent and will be stopped, or they haven't and they won't. It's not as though Sawstop have deep pockets compared to Bosch..

I don't know anything of the back story of Mr Gass - I can't imagine it would affect what I think of their tools.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Hilarious thread.. No-one's getting upset about Festool not sharing around their many patents before they expire, I notice.

There is nothing as critically important as the flesh sensing technology in Festool's line-up.

Stephen Gass is playing the system, don't be surprised if the system plays back.

 

[Sparktrician]

When Vovlo invented the seat belt they let everybody use their technology freely because they thought public safety was much more important than their short term financial interest.

Now Tesla Cars made all their technology free to use to make sure electric cars can mature quicker and an infrastructure to support them can be created.

But not Stephen Gass , he calls patents the corner stone of American innovation, but is doing nothing but stopping innovation on this important safety feature. By keeping the saw intact, Bosch has already improved on the concept, making them cheaper and thus more available and thus creating a situation that can only lead to increased use of this type of saws.

Volvo had the right idea, as does Tesla.  So far, though, looking at list prices, the Bosch REAXX is ~$200 more expensive that the comparable SawStop jobsite saw.  Steve Gass' attitude is why I'll not be supporting SawStop.  There will be a REAXX in my shop when it finally gets here. 

 

[mf44]

I don't think we should forget the history of SawStop; it sheds some light on what's been going on.  Steve Gass was a patent attorney, of course he sees the values of patents.  But when he first developed the blade stopping tech he didn't decide to build a company on his own.  Instead, he approached every major saw manufacturer, seeking to license his idea.  All refused, and a possible deal with Ryobi also stalled.

When he was manufacturing the saw himself, the Power Tool Institute (PTI), which is a trade organization representing numerous power tool companies, BOSCH included, opposed it, saying his technology was unsafe (??) and unproven, and also required higher priced saws (there's the real reason).  The PTI, BOSCH included, issued a statement that new plastic blade guards were all that was needed to make a table saw safe and has claimed that there have been no reported injuries since the new guards came about in 2007.  I don't know about that claim. 

Now BOSCH has seemed to reverse course, if their new saw is any indication. 

I think that someone who was spurned by the industry, after he sought to license a technology he had developed to as many companies as he could, and then was told by the industry's biggest players that his technology was unsafe and unnecessary and would add too much to the cost of the saw, has a right to defend his intellectual property when those companies now try to use it for their own (assuming one of his patents was actually infringed upon).

I don't know how similar the BOSCH technology is, to the SawStop tech, but now that determination can be made by a patent judge and court, or via a settlement.  Don't get me wrong, I wish that blade stopping tech was available free for all saw manufacturers to use, but after what Gass has done to bring it to market, including building a company from literally nothing, I think he gets at least a little latitude in defending his hard work for the last decade.

I'd urge many to consider this article  from Bloomberg, from a number of years ago.  I think it discusses both sides of this issue rather well, and lays out the efforts Gass and other companies have put into this entire ordeal.

I don't know where I fall on this topic; it's clearly a polarizing issue.  But it's also very complex, as are many of these intellectual property law suits, especially when the issue touches on safety.

 

[sae]

I'd urge many to consider this article  from Bloomberg, from a number of years ago.  I think it discusses both sides of this issue rather well, and lays out the efforts Gass and other companies have put into this entire ordeal.

Good article, there's one important point that needs to be highlighted. Offering the product as an option is one thing, attempting to force everyone to license your patent is another. A "government-granted monopoly" as the article said, is a good way to put it.

For eight years, Gass has lobbied the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to require all table saws sold in the U.S. to be equipped with SawStop or a similar safety device.

 

[Kev]

Not true, sure kickback is the biggest danger, but when that piece of wood goes flying lots of unexpected things can happen. There are many documented accidents where kickback caused the hand or arm to be pulled into the blade. 

Safe practice makes a lot of difference, but not ALL the difference.

Maybe if you're reaching across the blade to guide the material on the other side - which would be very foolish. I will hold with the thinking that a kickback will not drag your arms into the blade if you are guiding a piece of timber with push sticks or held in a slider. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't believe it.

 

[Bohdan]

Happened to me.

 

[TelcoRandy]

Kev, this guy almost cut off his fingers to show his audience how to produce a kickback and how violent they can be.
Thintz12 Kickback Video