SawStop Video

Touche - I'll admit that my comments about judging others are hypocritical and I have diminished my credibility on that matter. I apologize for offending anyone. I have no problem admitting when I make an error. I am accountable for my actions. In this case I have suffered the consequence of being called out on it and embarrased in a public forum. As you can see, I stand by my statements about choice and accountability. I chose to make those statements and I am suffering the consequences. Thank you Michael for pointing out my error. With that said, I still will choose not to purchase a sawstop nor will I agree with the government possibly making that technology mandatory.
 
In situations where the only individual that can be hurt is the one making the choices - there should be complete freedom of choice.

Who knows - it may just result in an improvement in the gene pool over time !

Can imagine sharp knives being banned from homes because people slice themselves preparing dinner  [eek]
 
Thank you Kev - That is the point I was trying unsuccessfully to make is where does it stop? Is it necessary for the government to protect us from ourselves? At what point do people start taking accountability for their actions/choices and stop blaming others for their mistakes.
 
BarBuilder, admirable response.

Like you I won't be buying a SawStop. I'd like to though, I just can't afford it.
So, I do hope the technology becomes mandatory so I will be able to afford to
buy a safer saw from someone.

Kev, there are very few risky activities one can engage in without impacting others.
In that interview Gass said sales of tablesaws in the US totals less than $300 million per year.
The cost of injuries resulting from using tablesaws is around $2.5 billion per year.
(I don't know if that includes lost productivity etc.)

 
Michael Kellough said:
BarBuilder, admirable response.

Like you I won't be buying a SawStop. I'd like to though, I just can't afford it.
So, I do hope the technology becomes mandatory so I will be able to afford to
buy a safer saw from someone.

Kev, there are very few risky activities one can engage in without impacting others.
In that interview Gass said sales of tablesaws in the US totals less than $300 million per year.
The cost of injuries resulting from using tablesaws is around $2.5 billion per year.
(I don't know if that includes lost productivity etc.)
Click to expand...

Yep - lots of changes have been forced onto people because of statistical justifications. I could justify almost anything with stats.

Funny how some of the really terrible killers don't get addressed though - typically when taxation revenue and mega corporations are involved.

Let a person smoke and drink themselves to death - but we'll save them from cutting off their fingers with a table saw (hard to smoke and drink without fingers).

Any idea of how many people walk in front of a car while they're talking on a mobile phone? If the answer is more than zero, should we ban the use of phones while walking?

Power tools are dangerous if not used with the utmost caution. Still, accidents will happen. A healthy respect for them is your best defense against injury. Apply "common sense".

How many eye injuries occur because of a lack of safety goggles or glasses while woodworking, metalworking, gardening or from stone masonry?

If buying new table saw and having the option of exta safety ... Would I choose it? - probably yes. But I still think I should have the choice when it's simply for personal domestic use. Still - no matter what technology is in the table saw - no part of my body is ever going close to the spinning blade !!!

At least I'll still have the freedom to stick my head under the lawn mover if I really want to be stupid  [eek]
 
BarBuilder said:
Brice - I believe that no matter what my response is, you will continue to make assumptions about me and my situation, financial or otherwise.....
Click to expand...

One thing about discussion on internet forums is that we all have to make assumptions since few of us know one another personally.  Moreover, while some of my comments were directed at you I didn't necessarily intend it that way.  That's a nuance often missed on forums.  To be clear, my comments were really directed far more to the general public for the sake of conversation, and not so much you specifically.  I certainly didn't intend any offense, or for that matter, to be argumentative.  Bottom line, I probably should have worded my response a little differently to better reflect my meaning.  Sorry for that.
 
While I really dislike mandated things, from a practical point of view this is no different from so many things you already have. 

You can't buy a car w/o seat belts and air bags, you can't buy a garage door opener w/o safety features that reverse the door if you break the beam or it encounters to much resistance, you can't buy a washing machine that doesn't stop the cyle when you open the lid, and on and on.

The list of products w/ mandated safety features is endless and I really don't see why the SS sparks so much more resistance than all the other products we buy w/o evening thinking about the mandated safety features they have built in.  Mandated safety features have been w/ us for quite a while and even though I don't like it, they're here to stay and we might as well get over it and move on.

I bought my SS for 2 reasons.  First it is a high quality product and secondly, it has the added safety feature.  And I've seen the technology work twice now, once at hotdog demo and the second time in my shop when someone else was using my saw and accidentally pushed the aluminum extrusion of miter guage fence into the blade.  The technology works, I could barely find the nick in the hotdog or the miter gauge fence.

Can you still get hurt? Sure, absolutely, but I've bet my hard earned money that the odds are the injury will less severe w/ a SS than w/o it.  Hopefully I won't ever find out, but I view it as cheap insurance.

Still typing w/ a full set of fingers and thumbs and hoping to stay that way......

Fred
 
Brice - no problem at all. It all makes for a spirited debate. It is not my intent to offend on this forum as I am mainly here to take advice from those with more experience than me and to offer advice if I can. I also may occasionally offer my opinion on issues even if my opinion is unpopular or in the minority. I will likely stick my foot in my mouth on occasion when doing so - as I did in this instance.
 
bruegf said:
While I really dislike mandated things, from a practical point of view this is no different from so many things you already have.   

You can't buy a car w/o seat belts and air bags, you can't buy a garage door opener w/o safety features that reverse the door if you break the beam or it encounters to much resistance, you can't buy a washing machine that doesn't stop the cyle when you open the lid, and on and on.

The list of products w/ mandated safety features is endless and I really don't see why the SS sparks so much more resistance than all the other products we buy w/o evening thinking about the mandated safety features they have built in.   Mandated safety features have been w/ us for quite a while and even though I don't like it, they're here to stay and we might as well get over it and move on.

I bought my SS for 2 reasons.  First it is a high quality product and secondly, it has the added safety feature.   And I've seen the technology work twice now, once at hotdog demo and the second time in my shop when someone else was using my saw and accidentally pushed the aluminum extrusion of miter guage fence into the blade.   The technology works, I could barely find the nick in the hotdog or the miter gauge fence.

Can you still get hurt? Sure, absolutely, but I've bet my hard earned money that the odds are the injury will less severe w/ a SS than w/o it.  Hopefully I won't ever find out, but I view it as cheap insurance.

Still typing w/ a full set of fingers and thumbs and hoping to stay that way......

Fred
Click to expand...

Unfortunately Fred, accepting everything is not the position everyone wants to take. There's nothing wrong with people taking a stand for what they believe in.

I'm happy for you that you're pleased with your saw stop - but there'll be something mandated in the future that you really won't like and you may just think back to this.

Things need to be rational and that involves debate.

I also don't believe that the mandated list of safety features for woodworking equipment is endless. If anything, I'd say its relatively finite. Manual hand tools .. files, chisels, saws, etc - not much ... Bet there's been a lot of thumbs sliced off with a good old hand saw!

Extra safety options are good and I fully support mandating where public safety or child safety is involved.

If everyone in the US are cutting their hands off with table saws - I'd be surprised that band saws would be permitted in the country  [smile]

Kev
 
I've been a long time advocate of sawstop and have always wanted one.  I was reading through the FAQ's on sawstop's website and this one prompted me to do a quick calc:

Can I get a serious injury using a sawstop saw?

answer: IN the vast majority of cases, coming in contact with the spinning blade will result in a minor cut.  However, if your hand moves into the blade at very high speed, it is possible for you to receive a serious injury.

So lets do a little math.  They quote 3-5 milliseconds or 0.003-0.005 seconds.  My finger is about 0.5" wide, thus my finger has to move at about 5.7mph-9.5mph to be severed.  That's not a high speed.

I don't know how many of you are surprised by this result but it shocks me how slow my finger has to move to be cut off.  I'm more worried about when something kicks my hand at 100mph into the blade not when my finger is taking a slow jog into it.

The appeal to sawstop is some sort of comfort level knowing there is a safety device.  How much safer is it really?  How comfortable should one get knowing there is this safety device installed?  Does it really prevent the "VAST majority of cases"?  I think you would have to be disobeying all the rules to put this device to use.  On the other hand, the sawstop build quality is pretty good in comparison...so maybe just buy it for that reason?  I think I have changed my mind, sliding saw is a better option.
 
Kev said:
Unfortunately Fred, accepting everything is not the position everyone wants to take. There's nothing wrong with people taking a stand for what they believe in.

I'm happy for you that you're pleased with your saw stop - but there'll be something mandated in the future that you really won't like and you may just think back to this.

Things need to be rational and that involves debate..........

Kev
Click to expand...

Kev, I'm not directing this following at you particularly.

I have a friend that's much older and wiser than I am.  I learned a lot from our conversations over the years and I hold his opinion in high regard.  Years ago when I was in my mid-twenties or so I was being particularly short sighted about a rather complex social issue our group was discussing.  What my friend said next stuck with me, "Life is simple for the simple." 

Now I'm not calling anyone here a simpleton, I want to make that clear.  However, there are so many people all over the internet that are acting like simpletons with illogical responses, opinions, or outbursts over the SawStop debate. "I don't want the government shoving mandates down my throat" just isn't a sound argument in this particular topic.                   
 
Chris Rosenberger said:
Do you also think in the well known broadly heard about case of the woman who spilled hot coffee in her lap she was just trying to extort money from McDonalds?

Her lawyer was. 
Click to expand...

-"Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses. Her past medical expenses were $10,500; her anticipated future medical expenses were approximately $2,500; and her loss of income was approximately $5,000 for a total of approximately $18,000.[14]  Instead, the company offered only $800. When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck retained Texas attorney Reed Morgan."

I agree with Brice, logic works for simple problems but the issues that are hard to decide require intuition. At that point we can seldom convincingly explain our position let alone persuade others to adapt it.
 
Brice Burrell said:
Kev said:
Unfortunately Fred, accepting everything is not the position everyone wants to take. There's nothing wrong with people taking a stand for what they believe in.

I'm happy for you that you're pleased with your saw stop - but there'll be something mandated in the future that you really won't like and you may just think back to this.

Things need to be rational and that involves debate..........

Kev
Click to expand...

Kev, I'm not directing this following at you particularly.

I have a friend that's much older and wiser than I am.  I learned a lot from our conversations over the years and I hold his opinion in high regard.  Years ago when I was in my mid-twenties or so I was being particularly short sighted about a rather complex social issue our group was discussing.  What my friend said next stuck with me, "Life is simple for the simple." 

Now I'm not calling anyone here a simpleton, I want to make that clear.  However, there are so many people all over the internet that are acting like simpletons with illogical responses, opinions, or outbursts over the SawStop debate. "I don't want the government shoving mandates down my throat" just isn't a sound argument in this particular topic.                     
Click to expand...

"particularly" ?

My position here is that a specific patented commercial product with a limited scope of safety capabilities is not a comprehensive safety solution. If I was at all suspicious, I could question whether to motivations behind the device are safety or profit through mandated application? Hmmm?

Simple? Hardly.

I must say though - no matter how much throwing the word "simpleton" around is prefaced ... I see particular irony in your use here.

If you don't want to direct what is essentially an insult at me - simply don't quote a section of one of my posts as you recount the wisdom of your mentor.

If you'd like further wisdom along similar lines as your quaint little saying, I can direct you to a source of many other eponymous adages!

You don't know me Brice, but if you'd like to, I'd invite an exchange via pm.
 
hanshamm said:
I've been a long time advocate of sawstop and have always wanted one.  I was reading through the FAQ's on sawstop's website and this one prompted me to do a quick calc:

Can I get a serious injury using a sawstop saw?

answer: IN the vast majority of cases, coming in contact with the spinning blade will result in a minor cut.  However, if your hand moves into the blade at very high speed, it is possible for you to receive a serious injury.

So lets do a little math.  They quote 3-5 milliseconds or 0.003-0.005 seconds.  My finger is about 0.5" wide, thus my finger has to move at about 5.7mph-9.5mph to be severed.  That's not a high speed.

I don't know how many of you are surprised by this result but it shocks me how slow my finger has to move to be cut off.  I'm more worried about when something kicks my hand at 100mph into the blade not when my finger is taking a slow jog into it.

The appeal to sawstop is some sort of comfort level knowing there is a safety device.  How much safer is it really?  How comfortable should one get knowing there is this safety device installed?  Does it really prevent the "VAST majority of cases"?  I think you would have to be disobeying all the rules to put this device to use.  On the other hand, the sawstop build quality is pretty good in comparison...so maybe just buy it for that reason?  I think I have changed my mind, sliding saw is a better option.
Click to expand...

3-5 milliseconds is the time for the blade to retract completely. The reaction time for the blade to start retracting is about 1/5 that.

 
Kev said:
....I must say though - no matter how much throwing the word "simpleton" around is prefaced ... I see particular irony in your use here.

If you don't want to direct what is essentially an insult at me - simply don't quote a section of one of my posts as you recount the wisdom of your mentor....
Click to expand...

Kev, I'm sorry if you're insulted, that wasn't my intention.  PM sent.     
 
Sawstop states on their website that the blade stops within 5 ms of detecting contact with skin.   In addition, as the brake fires the blade drops below the table, further reducing the contact the teeth of the blade have with your finger.   Yes, you can still get hurt, but it definitely improves your chances of needing a bandaid or stitches instead of reattachment.  As in all things in life, you pay your money and take your chances.   Like it, don't like, buy it, or not, each to their own preferences.   Hopefully none of us will ever get in a situation where the technology will make a difference, but personally I'll take my chances with it rather than without it.

Fred
 
Kev said:
....My position here is that a specific patented commercial product with a limited scope of safety capabilities is not a comprehensive safety solution. If I was at all suspicious, I could question whether to motivations behind the device are safety or profit through mandated application? Hmmm?....
Click to expand...

We agree, this device is not a comprehensive safety solution.  I don't think anyone was suggesting it was.

You aren't the first to question the motivation.  I can't help but feel the "suspicious about profits" argument is not a good one.  Who says profit and mandated safety devices have to be mutually exclusive?  Not me.  I think it's fine if Gass' motivation is for profit, the insurance companies come out ahead and table saw manufactures avoid costly lawsuits, as long as the net benefit justifies the additional cost and people get to save fingers.  
 
The wording in sawstops white paper is:

"The spring pushes the brake pawl into the teeth of the spinning blade, and the teeth cut into the aluminum and bind, thereby stopping the blade.  All this happens in about 3-5 milliseconds, or 1/200th of a second.  At the same time, the angular momentum of the blade causes the blade to retract below the table and the power to the motor is shut off."

That clearly states 3-5 milliseconds for the brake to engage,then the angular momentum drops the blade.  It's not at the same time.  He has even explained, the retraction mechanism rotational energy comes from the rotation of the blade.  So their wording implies a lag time between sensor and brake impact of 3-5 milliseconds.

I wasn't implying I thought it was a comprehensive solution.  I just heard 3-5 millisecond and thought to myself damn that's fast, based on my intuition I thought that must be pretty good.  After doing the math I'm not sure it is that much safer.  That made me go back and watch the videos, I estimated
 
Nothing is ever completely safe. But every bit helps! If it can lower injury rates and just save one thumb it helps.

Cheers,
Steve
 
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