Selecting wood species for doors

iamnothim

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I hope everyone is having a great holiday weekend.
I just finished remodeling my daughter’s room and I am getting ready to make new hall linen cabinets and new closet doors in my son’s room.

I’ve had a heck of a time making cabinet doors and closet doors that stay flat.  I had one cabinet door in my laundry room torque and one of the long closet doors in my daughter’s room.  I made both out of 4/4 poplar.  The closet doors have a 1/4" MDF back and are joined with glue and pocket screws.  The laundry room is glued/dominos.

I posted in my paneling project thread I' thinking of ordering cabinet doors, but that doesn't solve the closet doors.  Still in all I should be able to make the doors myself.

I’m not sure if I’m selecting bad pieces, using a bad technique, or should be using another species of wood.  MDF would be too heavy for bi-fold closet doors.

Do you have any suggestions?

Kind regards,  Luke
 
No idea about the type of wood to use, but I've made 7 to 8' high bi-fold doors, they are not too heavy for cabinet doors. I've made them from individual doors 12-16" wide and used 5 or 6 Euro hinges to hang the first doors, and 3" butt hinges to hang the second door from the first door. I'll try and find some photos if I have any...
 
E30Mark said:
No idea about the type of wood to use, but I've made 7 to 8' high bi-fold doors, they are not too heavy for cabinet doors. I've made them from individual doors 12-16" wide and used 5 or 6 Euro hinges to hang the first doors, and 3" butt hinges to hang the second door from the first door. I'll try and find some photos if I have any...
Thanks for the reply.
Perhaps if I used a shaker door and applied the panel trim over the mirrors.  The doors need to be 23" wide.  You can see that the third door isn't straight.

I still would like to know what I am doing wrong.

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It's not you. If a given amount turn out just fine and a few have issues its the material. The only way to solve it is prep all your material well in advance of assembly, cull out what is bad or cut out the bad areas. This does require you prep extra material but it will solve your problem.

Maple should work just fine for what your doing.

Tom
 
Pull a jet(thin) line from one wall to the other in front of the door opening. Pick an even number, 12" at both ends. Measure from the line to the jamb posts. If this is off, even by a 1/4", it will throw you out. Cheapest correction is to hold the doors that are without all the hinges on to where the doors match.Mark the new hinge positions and cheat in or out as needed. MARK
 
tjbnwi said:
It's not you. If a given amount turn out just fine and a few have issues its the material. The only way to solve it is prep all your material well in advance of assembly, cull out what is bad or cut out the bad areas. This does require you prep extra material but it will solve your problem.  Maple should work just fine for what your doing.
Tom
Good to know.  OK. I'm going to the hardwood store tomorrow and spend more time on selecting the sticks.  I've decided to make the closet doors for my son's room from oak. I'll dye it with GF ebony to match the furniture I refinished for his room. (photo) The furniture is white oak.  Red oak is half the price of the quarter sawn white oak they have, but my understanding is quarter sawn is very stable.  However it would be a waste of money when all you'll see is the grain.... and quarter sawn has less grain.

So if the red oak they have looks good I'll go with that.  Maybe 5/4 and I won't take the backing for the mirror to the outside edge.

jmarkflesher said:
Pull a jet(thin) line from one wall to the other in front of the door opening. Pick an even number, 12" at both ends. Measure from the line to the jamb posts. If this is off, even by a 1/4", it will throw you out. Cheapest correction is to hold the doors that are without all the hinges on to where the doors match.Mark the new hinge positions and cheat in or out as needed. MARK

Mark.  Thanks for the tip.  I haven't done many mortise hinges but I did learn how to tweak/shim them for best results.  I have a Milescraft hinge jig set.  It worked well using the MFK 700.  I will be sure to check the jams.

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Just ordered an HL 850,  cause, well, ya know, ya gotta prep your sticks correctly. [smile]

Marks said so! or was it Tom (not that Tom)

EDIT:  I have been wanting that bad boy for a long time.
 
iamnothim said:
Red oak is half the price of the quarter sawn white oak they have, but my understanding is quarter sawn is very stable. 

IF they will let you sort through their stock (always pile it neatly, of course - even if you didn't find it that way) you may very well find some quarter sawn or 'near-quarter sawn' material in there. The 'cheap and dirty' way to cut logs is just to slice them in slabs, which means that they end up with some plain sawn, some rift sawn, and some quarter sawn from the same board. If they don't sort them at the mill, you're set!

Also, if you go with wider boards they will naturally come from closer to the center of the log so you may find that they are, in fact, quarter sawn - but can be purchased at plain sawn and BF pricing.

So - without meaning to insult you or insinuate that you don't know what you're doing - I'll post the steps I would recommend which might also be valuable to future readers even if not necessarily for you:

• Buy 'em oversize - and allow for 25% scrap at least. I know it seems excessive, but you've got evidence of what happens with wood.
• Bring 'em home and unload them into the room where they will be installed, if at all possible.
• Let them sit for days - or weeks. If in the midst of season changes I try to allow more time.
• Cut 'em down the center to release tension, then let 'em sit some more. At least another few days.

Note: Some people argue that those last two steps should be reversed. My personal experience doesn't seem to to offer much reason to do one before the other except for this: IF you have a good relationship with the place you buy your lumber, you may be able to return a piece that starts to warp or twist if you haven't already cut it. Other than that, I haven't seen any difference in the behavior of the wood itself.

Then prepare them like you normally would:

1. If they've gone squirrelly on you, discard (or return) them They won't get any straighter!  [wink]
2. Joint/cut/straighten one edge
3. Plane/sand/rout one face flat
4. Surface to thickness
5. Cut to width
6. Perform Joinery steps.

That's about all you can do, buddy!

Good luck!

Edit: You posted about the HL850 while i was posting. Nice tool! And now I am officiailly jealous!
 
Wow! wow.

Thanks for the tips.  I haven't really performed many of those steps.  Gee. Maybe...?
One reason is the lack of a joiner, planer, or table saw.  I'm pretty good w/o the table saw by using the parallel guides.  I decided against the little table top accessory for the HL 850 because I don't think I can run long stock through it level.

When you say "cut them down the center" do you mean rip them in two?
 
iamnothim said:
Wow! wow.

Thanks for the tips.  I haven't really performed many of those steps.  Gee. Maybe...?
One reason is the lack of a joiner, planer, or table saw.  I'm pretty good w/o the table saw by using the parallel guides.  I decided against the little table top accessory for the HL 850 because I don't think I can run long stock through it level.

When you say "cut them down the center" do you mean rip them in two?

Yep - rip it right down the center and let it set. Wood grows under tension. I've had pieces that were perfectly flat when I picked them up turn into 'propeller wood' after ripping.  [eek] I can usually still cut the board into shorter lengths for drawer parts, jigs, etc. but some have been so bad that they ended up as firewood. If you have any long pieces that get only a LITTLE twisted, see if you can dimension them flat and then use them for the cross pieces (rails vs. stiles)?

If you use your track saw to rip you'll be perfectly safe and get a nice edge. If it wants to bind the blade, stop the saw, drive a shim into the cut behind the saw until the blade no longer binds, then start again. Obviously you will need to make ANOTHER cut a few days later once the wood has (hopefully) stopped moving.

When I do this on my table saw I am always prepared for it to bind or kick back. I have a Reitech Easy-OFF switch mounted where I can bump it with my knee and quickly stop the saw. That let's me have both hands on the board for control but let's me quickly and safely stop the blade in a hurry!

[attachimg=1]

Disclaimer: I met the creator of the Easy-OFF while I was manager of Performax (now SuperMax). I bought the switch at a discounted price and - even better - he came out to my shop one Saturday and helped me install it!
 

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wow said:
iamnothim said:
Wow! wow.

Thanks for the tips.  I haven't really performed many of those steps.  Gee. Maybe...?
One reason is the lack of a joiner, planer, or table saw.  I'm pretty good w/o the table saw by using the parallel guides.  I decided against the little table top accessory for the HL 850 because I don't think I can run long stock through it level.

When you say "cut them down the center" do you mean rip them in two?

Yep - rip it right down the center and let it set. Wood grows under tension. I've had pieces that were perfectly flat when I picked them up turn into 'propeller wood' after ripping.  [eek] I can usually still cut the board into shorter lengths for drawer parts, jigs, etc. but some have been so bad that they ended up as firewood. If you have any long pieces that get only a LITTLE twisted, see if you can dimension them flat and then use them for the cross pieces (rails vs. stiles)?

If you use your track saw to rip you'll be perfectly safe and get a nice edge. If it wants to bind the blade, stop the saw, drive a shim into the cut behind the saw until the blade no longer binds, then start again. Obviously you will need to make ANOTHER cut a few days later once the wood has (hopefully) stopped moving.

When I do this on my table saw I am always prepared for it to bind or kick back. I have a Reitech Easy-OFF switch mounted where I can bump it with my knee and quickly stop the saw. That let's me have both hands on the board for control but let's me quickly and safely stop the blade in a hurry!

[attachimg=1]

Disclaimer: I met the creator of the Easy-OFF while I was manager of Performax (now SuperMax). I bought the switch at a discounted price and - even better - he came out to my shop one Saturday and helped me install it!
 
I need 3 1/2" (1x4) stiles and rails for the closet doors.  I domino a double stile at the bottom.
So I'm buying what?  1x6s    I need 80 linear feet or about 7 x 12' sicks.  ?  Am I better off with 5/4 over 4/4?
 
iamnothim said:
I need 3 1/2" (1x4) stiles and rails for the closet doors.  I domino a double stile at the bottom.
So I'm buying what?  1x6s    I need 80 linear feet or about 7 x 12' sicks.  ?  Am I better off with 5/4 over 4/4?

Only if you're buying from a 'big box' store (which I HIGHLY suggest NOT doing!) will you be buying a 1x4 OR 1X6. From a true lumber yard or wholesaler you'll get boards that are somewhat random in width, but I can find 4-1/2" or 5" boards with no trouble.

Because of the length of your stiles I'd go with at least 5/4. If you want to end up with a finished thickness of 1" I might even consider buying 6/4? But if you find some good, straight, and true quarter sawn stuff you should be fine with 5/4.

Another BIG DEAL about buying from a lumber yard or wholesaler is that they can tell you (or measure) the moisture content of their wood. We're getting a bit technical here, but wood will NOT stop moving until it has a stable moisture content matched as closely as is practical to the equilibrium moisture content (EMC) conditions in service. If you have insomnia, or want to find the details for your city, read and check out table 12-1 on this site:

http://www.conradlumberco.com/pdfs/ch12_Drying_Control_of_Moisture.pdf

Be aware that if you heat with forced air (the norm where i live) the winter numbers are typically MUCH lower than shown. I usually try to buy (or dry) my wood with a moisture content of around 7% and then let it acclimate UP from there before I use it. It's a lot easier to let wood take on a little more moisture than it is to get rid of it.

BTW, if you try to air dry fresh-cut wood it will take YEARS to reach that level - if it ever goes below 12%! I've done it...
 
wow said:
iamnothim said:
I need 3 1/2" (1x4) stiles and rails for the closet doors.  I domino a double stile at the bottom.
So I'm buying what?  1x6s    I need 80 linear feet or about 7 x 12' sicks.  ?  Am I better off with 5/4 over 4/4?

Only if you're buying from a 'big box' store (which I HIGHLY suggest NOT doing!) will you be buying a 1x4 OR 1X6. From a true lumber yard or wholesaler you'll get boards that are somewhat random in width, but I can find 4-1/2" or 5" boards with no trouble.

We have a great hardwood store in OC CA.  Austin Hardwoods. They have an amazing selection of hardwood species and the staff is very knowledgable.  They are also a Festool dealer.

I'll get 5/4 stock because I don't own a surface planer and I'm not sure I'd be accurate with the HL 850 taking off a lot of material off the face of 6/4.

I'm fortunate.  Usually I only run the heat for a week and the A/C for a month.
 
Sounds like a plan!

[big grin]

One more thought if I haven't monopolized this thread long enough. You might want to ask them it they know of a place that will let you run your finished doors through their wide-belt sander? Just a couple of passes will make the world of difference and it's usually pretty cheap. Become a friend and it might not cost you more than a pizza for lunch some day...

I'll let you run 'em through my SuperMax if you wanna bring 'em over...

[tongue]
 
wow said:
Sounds like a plan!

[big grin]

One more thought if I haven't monopolized this thread long enough. You might want to ask them it they know of a place that will let you run your finished doors through their wide-belt sander? Just a couple of passes will make the world of difference and it's usually pretty cheap. Become a friend and it might not cost you more than a pizza for lunch some day...

I'll let you run 'em through my SuperMax if you wanna bring 'em over...

[tongue]

Ya know...  I just wasn't getting the rip the stiles down the middle thing.  I thought "gee there's a heck of a lot of waste and I'm buying real wide lumber"

So I emailed Charles Neil....  Charles there's "this guy" that says to split your timber down the middle.  "Luke, he's absolutely right.  AND when you finish ripping flip one half and glue them together !"

wow......buddy,  Kinda forgot about the glue part.  [smile]
 
iamnothim said:
wow said:
Sounds like a plan!

[big grin]

One more thought if I haven't monopolized this thread long enough. You might want to ask them it they know of a place that will let you run your finished doors through their wide-belt sander? Just a couple of passes will make the world of difference and it's usually pretty cheap. Become a friend and it might not cost you more than a pizza for lunch some day...

I'll let you run 'em through my SuperMax if you wanna bring 'em over...

[tongue]

Ya know...  I just wasn't getting the rip the stiles down the middle thing.  I thought "gee there's a heck of a lot of waste and I'm buying real wide lumber"

So I emailed Charles Neil....  Charles there's "this guy" that says to split your timber down the middle.  "Luke, he's absolutely right.  AND when you finish ripping flip one half and glue them together !"

wow......buddy,  Kinda forgot about the glue part.  [smile]

No. And yes. Let me explain...

No, I didn't forget about telling you about the glue part. I was assuming you had a piece of 5/4 wood that it is - say - 9-1/8" wide. Ripping it down the center gives you two pieces of 5/4 that are 4-1/2" wide each. Those boards will have less tension in them because they are narrower, and will be less likely to warp or twist.

And yes - What your friend was talking about goes one step FURTHER than I was suggesting. It *is* a more stable solution, but it's also more work. It goes like this:

Imagine that these are the growth rings seen at the end of your quartersawn board: ((((((((((

Now rip it in half like this: ((((( + (((((

Then flip one of the pieces over, and glue them together so the growth rings are arranged like this: ((((()))))

This tends to balance out the natural stresses in the wood. Or, more correctly, it allows them to act against each other and cancel each other out.

The main disadvantage to this second method - and why I didn't mention it - is that there is a seam right down the center of your stile. Depending on the type of wood, grain, etc. it may look just fine and be practically unnoticeable.

The 'half of each' answer is to do what I said by ripping the board in half, and then - what I *did* forget to mention - flip one of the boards over, with your rails in between. Looking at the top or bottom of your door the growth rings would look like this:

(((((===============)))))
stile              rail                stile

SO - did I redeem myself?

[unsure]

 
Luke,
I have had the 850 for a few years now.  At first (maybe 3 years) I used it only for flattening out one side of short logs (from fire wood pile) after running thru the BS.  I did not use a stable jig while flattening with the BS, so the pieces never came out flat.  I found I could flatten very quickly using the HL 850. Once I did the best I could with the 850, i finished off with a smooth plane or, if nearly purfic, i finished off with a scraper plane.  I had never used a power plane before and i could never get perfection.

I had learned long before i was 39 how to square up a board using a hand plane.  The first thin I tried with my 850 was to square up a board.  That was a very frustrating project.  That is, until i got the frame and fence.  I now have not only squared short boards, but i have planed edges to various opaque angles and can do it much easier than with my ATF 55.  The only problem is that it is more difficult with longer boards using such a short table on the 850 base. You might need a lot more practice than you are expecting to get a long, straight and square edge. 

If you have experience straightening and squaring a long edge, such as the door rails you have pictured, using a hand plane, you might want to stick with that method.  If you have lots of time, practice of some long scraps before you try the long edges of your doors.

I did several cabinet doors for our bathroom alteration about 3 years ago.  I did all of the face frames, door fronts and drawer fronts while the contractor (two carpenters and a sometimes helper) did all of the tearing out, reframing, cabinet carcases and installations.  Since i was working full time at my day job, i had to work much faster than my usual ww'ing pace.  For the doors (6 in all),  I tried to use very straight grained ash for the frames with figured grained resawn walnut for the panels. For the two higher up doors, I opted for the styles with some stressful grain for the visual appeal.  I figured that it the doors warped or twisted, I could rebuild with straighter grain at a later date.  Two lower cabinets under the vanity, i used straighter grain as I don't do so well bending over since I turned 39.  I have problems working down low.  I did not want to find it necessary to replace those 4 doors.  Well, those knotty doors have never twisted one bit.  One of the lower doors with the straight grain has twisted.  I think I am the only one who has noticed, so I'm not really concerned.  I think you have already discovered that when working with wood, there are sometimes surprises along the way.
Tinker
 
wow said:
No. And yes. Let me explain...

No, I didn't forget about telling you about the glue part. I was assuming you had a piece of 5/4 wood that it is - say - 9-1/8" wide. Ripping it down the center gives you two pieces of 5/4 that are 4-1/2" wide each. Those boards will have less tension in them because they are narrower, and will be less likely to warp or twist.

And yes - What your friend was talking about goes one step FURTHER than I was suggesting. It *is* a more stable solution, but it's also more work. It goes like this:

Imagine that these are the growth rings seen at the end of your quartersawn board: ((((((((((

Now rip it in half like this: ((((( + (((((

Then flip one of the pieces over, and glue them together so the growth rings are arranged like this: ((((()))))

This tends to balance out the natural stresses in the wood. Or, more correctly, it allows them to act against each other and cancel each other out.

The main disadvantage to this second method - and why I didn't mention it - is that there is a seam right down the center of your stile. Depending on the type of wood, grain, etc. it may look just fine and be practically unnoticeable.

The 'half of each' answer is to do what I said by ripping the board in half, and then - what I *did* forget to mention - flip one of the boards over, with your rails in between. Looking at the top or bottom of your door the growth rings would look like this:

(((((===============)))))
stile              rail                stile

SO - did I redeem myself?

[unsure]

Absolutely!
What a great explanation!
Yes, a seam on unpainted stiles can be unsightly.  These will be painted although there is something inherently wrong painting maple.

I did look at wider lumber, but the selection was not as good.

BTW:  I'm a Charles Neil Groupie.
The videos on his Online Finishing Blog ($10/mo.) are both incredibly (IMHO) informative and very entertaining.
 
Tinker said:
Luke,
I have had the 850 for a few years now.  At first (maybe 3 years) I used it only for flattening out one side of short logs (from fire wood pile) after running thru the BS.  I did not use a stable jig while flattening with the BS, so the pieces never came out flat.  I found I could flatten very quickly using the HL 850. Once I did the best I could with the 850, i finished off with a smooth plane or, if nearly purfic, i finished off with a scraper plane.  I had never used a power plane before and i could never get perfection.

I had learned long before i was 39 how to square up a board using a hand plane.  The first thin I tried with my 850 was to square up a board.  That was a very frustrating project.  That is, until i got the frame and fence.  I now have not only squared short boards, but i have planed edges to various opaque angles and can do it much easier than with my ATF 55.  The only problem is that it is more difficult with longer boards using such a short table on the 850 base. You might need a lot more practice than you are expecting to get a long, straight and square edge. 

If you have experience straightening and squaring a long edge, such as the door rails you have pictured, using a hand plane, you might want to stick with that method.  If you have lots of time, practice of some long scraps before you try the long edges of your doors.

I did several cabinet doors for our bathroom alteration about 3 years ago.  I did all of the face frames, door fronts and drawer fronts while the contractor (two carpenters and a sometimes helper) did all of the tearing out, reframing, cabinet carcases and installations.  Since i was working full time at my day job, i had to work much faster than my usual ww'ing pace.  For the doors (6 in all),  I tried to use very straight grained ash for the frames with figured grained resawn walnut for the panels. For the two higher up doors, I opted for the styles with some stressful grain for the visual appeal.  I figured that it the doors warped or twisted, I could rebuild with straighter grain at a later date.  Two lower cabinets under the vanity, i used straighter grain as I don't do so well bending over since I turned 39.  I have problems working down low.  I did not want to find it necessary to replace those 4 doors.  Well, those knotty doors have never twisted one bit.  One of the lower doors with the straight grain has twisted.  I think I am the only one who has noticed, so I'm not really concerned.  I think you have already discovered that when working with wood, there are sometimes surprises along the way.
Tinker

Thanks for helping to temper my expectations of the 850.  What I'm hoping for in the beginning is use it as a joiner to true-up edges on new lumber.  I haven't had much luck with using a spiral bit on my CMS.  I've only started using hand planes in the last year.  I didn't think I had the skill set but I'm getting better.  I have an old Stanley No.5 and No. 6 1/2.  I also have a Lie Nielsen adjustable mouth block plane and chisel plane.  I'm getting a lot better and can plane to a scribe line and work edges mostly w/o snipe.

I have stayed away from working the face of anything wider than the plane.

I posted this Paul Sellers video some time back.  IMO He's the rock star of hand planes.

 
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