Setting Toe In on Festool saws

[Michael Kellough]

...It isn't difficult to make a shallow scoring cut with the Festool saws without changing the depth of cut. Just find the right way to hold the saw so you can limit the depth for the first pass.

With the blade toed on the Festool saw I'm not sure it's not worth the time and effort for a scoring cut.

The difference between the front teeth and the rear teeth (the toe-in) is only .002" at full plunge.
At scoring depth the toe-in is insignificant. All the other brands of track saw should have similar toe-in for best results.

That said, I rarely need to do it, even with the old ATF 55 saw.

Michael, I don't if the .002" posted is typo or if your old ATF has much less toeing.  I believe it's more like .01" to .02".  I'm confident you're cutting the veneer twice so that sort of defeats the purpose.    

Someone posted a link to Rick's TS55 manual so I checked.

"7. Slide the back of the sawblade up to the edge of the cut piece of wood, except place a piece of paper between the blade and the wood. This paper serves as a shim to space the blade slightly away from the wood at the back of the cut. The saw’s cutting is improved if the back of the blade is skewed slightly away from the guide rail."

A typical piece of paper is around .002" thick. If your toe-in is set around that much when the blade is at full depth then when the blade is only at 2 mm or less there won't be any significant re-cutting at typical material depth.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Someone posted a link to Rick's TS55 manual so I checked.

"7. Slide the back of the sawblade up to the edge of the cut piece of wood, except place a piece of paper between the blade and the wood. This paper serves as a shim to space the blade slightly away from the wood at the back of the cut. The saw’s cutting is improved if the back of the blade is skewed slightly away from the guide rail."

A typical piece of paper is around .002" thick. If your toe-in is set around that much when the blade is at full depth then when the blade is only at 2 mm or less there won't be any significant re-cutting at typical material depth.

This might offend Rick, but I got my info from a higher source, David McGibbon.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Someone posted a link to Rick's TS55 manual so I checked.

"7. Slide the back of the sawblade up to the edge of the cut piece of wood, except place a piece of paper between the blade and the wood. This paper serves as a shim to space the blade slightly away from the wood at the back of the cut. The saw’s cutting is improved if the back of the blade is skewed slightly away from the guide rail."

A typical piece of paper is around .002" thick. If your toe-in is set around that much when the blade is at full depth then when the blade is only at 2 mm or less there won't be any significant re-cutting at typical material depth.

This might offend Rick, but I got my info from a higher source, David McGibbon.

Previously you thought the toe-in should be between .01 and 0.2". That neatly brackets 1/64" which is way too much even for a 14" table saw.

Maybe David will weigh in.

 

[tbellemare]

I was taught by Festool to set the toe-in using a business card at the back of the frame so across basically the full length of the saw.

Tom

 

[semenza]

Extra heavy stock or regular or thin?  I have never had to mess with the toe on my saw. But I have always had a problem with the idea of card or paper methods for setting things that need to be fairly precise in small measurements. Seems like the difference in thickness of the card would be enough to throw this off.

But maybe there is an official Festool Blade Toe In business card  [big grin]

Actually Festool could market that in a Micro Systainer  [thumbs up]

Seth

 

[ajones]

I may have cocked up

I just bought a new ts75 and was setting it to run on the same track as my other saws.

I clamped a rail to some scrap plunged the other saw through the material.

loosened the base on the ts t75 and plunged it and did the thing with the paper at the rear.

so I might have doubled the toe out at the rear [blink]

I have to say that I found the process to be hard to get an accurate result

and it would be a lot easier if the base was attached to the body via two cams

which would make the whole process much easier and quicker.

So do I need to go back and reset my saw? [unsure]

 

[tbellemare]

Extra heavy stock or regular or thin?  I have never had to mess with the toe on my saw. But I have always had a problem with the idea of card or paper methods for setting things that need to be fairly precise in small measurements. Seems like the difference in thickness of the card would be enough to throw this off.

But maybe there is an official Festool Blade Toe In business card  [big grin]

Actually Festool could market that in a Micro Systainer  [thumbs up]

Seth

My business cards are the best for this task and, obviously, obtaining useful information. They come with every order...

Tom

 

[Michael Kellough]

The amount of toe-in needed depends on the size of the blade and amount of run-out.

A piece of paper is enough for a fine tooth blade (in good condition) on a 55 saw.
A business card might be needed for a fine tooth blade on a TS 75 saw.

The more run-out a saw/blade combination produces the more toe-in you need to keep the wood under the guide rail scratch free. If the off-cut is the "keeper" you want a little less toe-in but don't go past neutral.

 

[tiralie]

I was taught by Festool to set the toe-in using a business card at the back of the frame so across basically the full length of the saw.

Tom:
Hmm, not sure where you mean?
Do you mean (business card) where the rear hinge block meets the frame?
Tim

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Someone posted a link to Rick's TS55 manual so I checked.

"7. Slide the back of the sawblade up to the edge of the cut piece of wood, except place a piece of paper between the blade and the wood. This paper serves as a shim to space the blade slightly away from the wood at the back of the cut. The saw’s cutting is improved if the back of the blade is skewed slightly away from the guide rail."

A typical piece of paper is around .002" thick. If your toe-in is set around that much when the blade is at full depth then when the blade is only at 2 mm or less there won't be any significant re-cutting at typical material depth.

This might offend Rick, but I got my info from a higher source, David McGibbon.

Brice, Brice, Brice.....

My phone rang this morning. It was David. We had a good chuckle about this comment.  [tongue]

Michael was correct. We think that maybe you got your units confused and posted metric numbers instead of inch. David did say that he had come across a specification for it from Festool engineering of 0.15mm, which is a little larger than what he and I had discussed back when the manual was written. This is also more consistent with a business card than a sheet of paper. 0.15mm = 0.006"

EDIT: Oh, I wasn't paying enough attention this morning. If I am remembering this better, the 0.15mm might have been the specification on the TS75.

 

[tbellemare]

I was taught by Festool to set the toe-in using a business card at the back of the frame so across basically the full length of the saw.

Tom:
Hmm, not sure where you mean?
Do you mean (business card) where the rear hinge block meets the frame?
Tim

Yes

Tom

 

[Rick Christopherson]

....
I just bought a new ts75 and was setting it to run on the same track as my other saws.

I clamped a rail to some scrap plunged the other saw through the material.

loosened the base on the ts t75 and plunged it and did the thing with the paper at the rear.

so I might have doubled the toe out at the rear [blink]
....
So do I need to go back and reset my saw? [unsure]

When you say you just plunged the saw down, does that mean that you made no forward movement? If your saw is cutting fine, then it's probably OK. However, if it has any loss of quality, then I would redo it.

The aspect about this that may be in question is that a sawblade is less stable in a plunging operation. Each tooth is engaged in a cutting action for a very long period. It's not always going to be the case, but the blade might have a greater tendency to wobble as it plunges through the material. If it wasn't for this possibility, it would actually be a very clever way of matching two saws to the same rail. If you're going to repeat the same method, I would recommend using a very homogeneous material, such as MDF, and also make the plunge very slowly to reduce the likelihood of blade wobble. If the first saw had the correct toe-in, then the second saw should also have the same toe-in.

However, if the plunged kerf is not tight to the second (non-spinning) blade, then there is a possibility for error.

 

[Michael Kellough]

....
I just bought a new ts75 and was setting it to run on the same track as my other saws.

I clamped a rail to some scrap plunged the other saw through the material.

loosened the base on the ts t75 and plunged it and did the thing with the paper at the rear.

so I might have doubled the toe out at the rear [blink]
....
So do I need to go back and reset my saw? [unsure]

When you say you just plunged the saw down, does that mean that you made no forward movement? If your saw is cutting fine, then it's probably OK. However, if it has any loss of quality, then I would redo it.

The aspect about this that may be in question is that a sawblade is less stable in a plunging operation. Each tooth is engaged in a cutting action for a very long period. It's not always going to be the case, but the blade might have a greater tendency to wobble as it plunges through the material. If it wasn't for this possibility, it would actually be a very clever way of matching two saws to the same rail. If you're going to repeat the same method, I would recommend using a very homogeneous material, such as MDF, and also make the plunge very slowly to reduce the likelihood of blade wobble. If the first saw had the correct toe-in, then the second saw should also have the same toe-in.

However, if the plunged kerf is not tight to the second (non-spinning) blade, then there is a possibility for error.

If the second blade has the same or smaller thickness it should work to match the two saws. If the second blade is significantly narrower than the first just push it snug against the left side of the original kerf and you'll be good.

The difficulty in adjusting toe-in on the TS saws is due to the plastic mounting blocks being a little too soft. The top of the block gets embossed by the saw cleat and you have to over loosen the screws to get the cleat out of the ditch, which makes it difficult to move the saw in the very fine increments needed. Then, when you try to re-tighten the screws after making a fine adjustment, the cleat goes right back into the ditch.

Fortunately there is a tab alongside the cleat that overlaps the side of the mounting block and provides a place to insert shims which can prevent cleat from going back into the ditch.

 

[tbellemare]

Then, when you try to re-tighten the screws after making a fine adjustment, the cleat goes right back into the ditch.

That is so true, Michael...

Tom

 

[Iwood75]

Once you make a full depth plunge with blade "toe-in", the splinterguard is trimmed farther back. Now when you return to a shallower plunge – to cut 1/2" plywood, as an example – the splinterguard is not at the edge of the cut line and isn't guarding against splinters. Could someone please explain why the blade can't run with zero toe-in? Then the splinterguard can be aligned on your marks (as advertised) and can do its job guarding against splintering (as advertised) – no matter the material thickness?

 

[Corwin]

Once you make a full depth plunge with blade "toe-in", the splinterguard is trimmed farther back. Now when you return to a shallower plunge – to cut 1/2" plywood, as an example – the splinterguard is not at the edge of the cut line and isn't guarding against splinters. Could someone please explain why the blade can't run with zero toe-in? Then the splinterguard can be aligned on your marks (as advertised) and can do its job guarding against splintering (as advertised) – no matter the material thickness?

If you were to tune your saw to have zero toe-in, the front of the blade would tend to wander slightly left and right as you proceeded down the rail.  This would also cause the back of the blade to leave scoring marks along the cut.  So, the slight toe-in attitude of a correctly adjusted saw will provide a better cut than one set with zero toe-in.

While it is true that the splinter guard is trimmed more once you cut at a full depth setting, thus leaving a shallower setting slightly shy of the splinter guard, this amount is minimal -- something less than one half the amount of toe-in.  So, this small difference should not be too much a concern as to the ability to help prevent splintering or in positioning your guide rail.

 

[tiralie]

Tom:
Hmm, not sure where you mean?
Do you mean (business card) where the rear hinge block meets the frame?
Tim

Yes

Tom
[/quote]

Tom:
Thanks, this is a lot easier to do than the Rick's Festool guide.
I don't see any difference in my test cuts (melamine).
Tim

 

[Deansocial]

Check mine and had to more the rear of the saw about 1.5mm. Sure feels better ow

 

[ccarrolladams]

One advantage to attending Festool USA End User classes is that you are welcome to bring your own TS55 and/or TS75. Both Brian "The Sedge" Sedgeley in Indiana and Steve Bace in Nevada will find the time to teach you to do your own toe-in adjustment. In the "Festools Essentials" (originally titled Festools Basic or Introduction to Festools) class adjustment of toe-in is part of the course.

My suggestion is to phone Festool USA service department who will tell you the correct name and size of the needed driver to adjust the screws. That is not commonly stocked in USA hardware stores.

A couple of days after I bought my first TS55 in January 2006, my dealer held one of his twice monthly open of Saturday mornings which are more about meeting other dedicated woodworkers of all experience levels and exchanging ideas than actually selling anything. One fellow showed me his approach to the toe-in adjustment. Since my saw was fresh from the factory, it needed no adjustment.

A couple of years later I owned a total of 3 TS55s and I wanted them to work with all of my rails. By then Allen Kensley was the SoCal Festool USA sales manager. He met me at my dealer just to supervise me as I adjusted all my saws. He asked me to bring a rail with a new splinter guard and two 48" long pieces of at least 33mm thick solid soft maple over 6" wide. Those would support the rail when it was clamped to a table.

Allen made test cuts with each saw until be found the one cutting the best. He used it to trim the new rail and at the same time straight-line one piece of maple. Leaving the rail clamped in the same position, he used the freshly cut piece of maple and a business card to adjust the toe-in of the other two TS55. His technique was more sophisticated than I had originally been taught, and is the same technique Steve and The Sedge taught in the November 2010 Cabinet class in Nevada.

Ever since that session with Allen Kensley, I have kept those two pieces of maple together in a safe place. Once I bought a TS75 and more TS55s, I have reserved my original TS55 as the exemplar of my shop standard toe-in. These days it is kept on the same shelf with my "standard" 1400mm guide rail and the pieces of maple. When selecting new rails I check them with my standard saw, just in case a rail is not the same as my standard. Then every new saw is adjusted to match my standard using the standard rail and pieces of maple. Once each year, but not on the same day, all of my Festool plunge saws and those belonging to my cabinet makers who care to participate, are tested for toe-in and adjusted as needed.

When a shop uses over 20 Festool plunge saws, it is comforting to know all have the most effective toe-in and also will shave the splinter guard the same way. I do not care to imagine the nightmare of trying to remember which guide rail is only accurate when used with certain saws.

 

[JonSchuck]

Reading this old thread it tells how to set up one TS55 to cut just like another but does not say how to set the toe in on a single saw.  Could somebody tell me how this is done? 
I recently noticed that my splinter guard was cut back away from the cut and sure enough my saw was loose on the rail.  I tightened it up and the cut got much worse.  It blackened both pieces but did not have any tear out.
Thank you