Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?

[_pwawmo_]

I've been following the shaper origin's journey to market for a while and now it's finally arrived in europe and I'm in a position to spend a bit of money to get some much needed cnc capabilities in my workshop... I really like the look of the shaper, for how straight forward it seems and for it's lack of footprint in the workshop. My other option is an entry level gantry cnc for a similar price - around £3100.

It seems fairly difficult to get an idea of how successfully people are using the shaper in a professional workshop setting. A lot of the reviews seem to be just explaining how the tool works (because it's neat and interesting in itself), or from where people with a good instagram following who have been 'lent' the origin from shaper for them to try out (and show off) ... What I'd really like is an unbiased opinion of someone using it for professional work and how they are getting on with it. My main interest would be for accurate jig making.

My biggest concern is accuracy, and there seems to be little info on this regarding actual numbers. Shapers website states...

'With a small amount of practice, you are actually able to achieve cuts far greater than within 1/100th of an inch using Origin. But we’ve decided to state that number as a more generally achievable range to help bound the conversation.'

This is really vague - and 1/100th of an inch (0.25mm) isn't so great IMO..  To add to the confusion further popularwoodworking did a review stating with regards to accuracy...

'In situations with tight tolerances, like joinery where .001” matters, the Origin does quite well. Measured accuracy from 12” to 36” is .02”-.05”, from 4’ to 6’, .08”-.18”. Repeatability — important in real-world CNC use, is about .01”.'

0.001” (0.025mm) is a really good tolerance for any woodworking machine, but they fully contradict this with the numbers they actually report which are pretty poor and don't make too much sense either. So it's hard to get an idea of what to actually expect from the shaper. I'd really like to know what sort of accuracy tolerances I should expect repeatably once i've gotten reasonably good at using the shaper? If anyone has any info or experience here, that'd be really helpful..

Sorry for rambling on but if anyone has got a shaper and uses it professionally (or not) I'd really like to hear how you're getting on generally, but also specifically regarding accuracy..

Thanks

 

[bkharman]

.001” is less than the wood itself moves. A slight change in humidity, and you also eat that up.

Here is an inlay and words I did recently.

I am not a professional tradesman, but I have more than gotten my money back with my SO.

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[_pwawmo_]

to be clear - 0.001" (1/1000) / (0.025mm) is great, and a really good tolerance for any woodworking machine. dial that up by 10 to 0.01" / 0.25mm (like it says on their website) and that's really not so amazing especially for accurate jig work, although i don't doubt just fine for decorative text inlays etc...

I realise they said 0.001" in the popularwoodworking review but then they followed it up with a lot of numbers that totally contradicted that!

 

[bkharman]

to be clear - 0.001" (1/1000) / (0.025mm) is great, and a really good tolerance for any woodworking machine. dial that up by 10 to 0.01" / 0.25mm (like it says on their website) and that's really not so amazing especially for accurate jig work, although i don't doubt just fine for decorative text inlays etc...

I realise they said 0.001" in the popularwoodworking review but then they followed it up with a lot of numbers that totally contradicted that!

What are you trying to accomplish with it? 

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[_pwawmo_]

I really just want to have CNC capability in my workshop, mainly for accurate jig making, or templates, or whatever else it comes in handy for. But ultimately it's utility would be relative to it's accuracy..

 

[HarveyWildes]

...  To add to the confusion further popular woodworking did a review stating with regards to accuracy...

'In situations with tight tolerances, like joinery where .001” matters, the Origin does quite well. Measured accuracy from 12” to 36” is .02”-.05”, from 4’ to 6’, .08”-.18”. Repeatability — important in real-world CNC use, is about .01”.'

I don't own one, but it sounds like the popular woodworking numbers are based on actual measured performance.  I don't think that .08 to .18 over 4'-6' is impressive in the CNC world, so if your jigs will be that size, you might consider alternatives.  The problem is that a flatbed CNC that will handle workpieces that size will set you back well over £3100, at least one from a company with a reputation for precision.  You could consider making one yourself, but then you are stuck with whatever you are capable of making.  In general, I think the appeal of the Shaper is that it is theoretically capable of handling an arbitrary size.

In the area of Colorado where I live, there are several "maker workshops" with very reasonable membership fees.  A membership allows unlimited use of CNC machines, laser engravers, and 3-D printers as well as woodworking and metal working tools.  The one that I've visited has a 4'x8' flatbed CNC machine, and I've only seen it in use once.  Users are responsible for consumables including bits, and the machines are maintained cooperatively.  It would be worth investigating a bit to see if you have something like that near you.  (https://lovelandcreatorspace.com/)

 

[Gregor]

What keeps me from buying a Shaper Origin is theirhttps://www.shapertools.com/de-de/terms#tc as of 26. September 2018 which with

2. Our License to you. Subject to these Terms of Service, we give you a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable license to use the Sites, Services, and Products. [...] Shaper may limit your access to any Site, Service, or Product in its sole discretion.

states that you are unable to legally transfer ownership (as you're not able to transfer the license to use the build-in software) and access to something you paid for can be taken from you on a whim without even giving you a reason.

TL;DR: the moment your use case for Shaper Origin ends that thing has scrap value at best, sooner in case they unilaterally decide to turn it off.

Compare that to

(a) License to Shaper.  You give Shaper (and those trusted third parties we work with) a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content solely for the purposes of operating, providing, improving, and developing the Shaper Sites, Services, and Products. When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, such as our Community Forum, you also grant Shaper a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your User Content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes.

where you have no recourse or way to stop them from making money of your designs should they decide to. Please note that using the cloud feature of the shaper origin (eg. loading a shape into it via their website) technically is as case of  When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, giving them the right to rip-off legally use your IP in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial.

TL;DR: what you upload to their cloud platform (even in your own partition) is no longer yours.

Then we have

17. Modification of these Terms of Service. These Terms of Service are subject to occasional change or update. Whenever the Terms of Service are materially changed, we will notify you, and the change will take effect 30 calendar days after notice is posted for existing users and immediately for new users. You are responsible for keeping your contact information up to date if you wish to receive notice of these changes. If you do not want to be subject to any changes in these Terms of Service, you must discontinue using our Services and Products before the change takes place. Continued use will serve as an acceptance of the changed Terms of Service

which basically codifies that they can change the ToS to turn your shaper origin into a pay-per-use device, grant them ius primae noctis or whatever else evil things one can come up with... and the moment you turn on your (*sig*) shaper origin the next time you agree to let them charge your VISA per mm routed, to bend over and relax or comply with whatever else they might come up with. And in case you're not agreeing you, as of the first quote, only have the option to scrap the machine as you're legally unable to sell it as fit for the original purpose since you can not transfer the software license...

TL;DR: you have no rights.

I have pointed that out to them, politely, 3 months ago, together with a list of other things incompatible with how things work here in Europe. While they have used the last three months to change some of the (for them) worst things that I found with their offering... the issue of their ToS is still as-is. Having given them enough time (akin to responsible disclosure) to change this without effect... it's IMHO now reasonable to voice my dispraise for their terms of service and to advise others against spending money on a device that you will not own, a device that can be stopped to function without reason or notice, a device that when used in the advertised use scenario (while it's still functioning) will steal transfer the rights to your designs to someone else without compensation.

________________________________________________________________________
The terms of service of ShaperTools are unacceptable and should not be accepted.
As of that Shaper Origin is, while things stay that way, not worth it.

 

[bkharman]

What keeps me from buying a Shaper Origin is theirhttps://www.shapertools.com/de-de/terms#tc as of 26. September 2018 which with

2. Our License to you. Subject to these Terms of Service, we give you a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable license to use the Sites, Services, and Products. [...] Shaper may limit your access to any Site, Service, or Product in its sole discretion.

states that you are unable to legally transfer ownership (as you're not able to transfer the license to use the build-in software) and access to something you paid for can be taken from you on a whim without even giving you a reason.

TL;DR: the moment your use case for Shaper Origin ends that thing has scrap value at best, sooner in case they unilaterally decide to turn it off.

Compare that to

(a) License to Shaper.  You give Shaper (and those trusted third parties we work with) a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content solely for the purposes of operating, providing, improving, and developing the Shaper Sites, Services, and Products. When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, such as our Community Forum, you also grant Shaper a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your User Content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes.

where you have no recourse or way to stop them from making money of your designs should they decide to. Please note that using the cloud feature of the shaper origin (eg. loading a shape into it via their website) technically is as case of  When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, giving them the right to rip-off legally use your IP in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial.

TL;DR: what you upload to their cloud platform (even in your own partition) is no longer yours.

Then we have

17. Modification of these Terms of Service. These Terms of Service are subject to occasional change or update. Whenever the Terms of Service are materially changed, we will notify you, and the change will take effect 30 calendar days after notice is posted for existing users and immediately for new users. You are responsible for keeping your contact information up to date if you wish to receive notice of these changes. If you do not want to be subject to any changes in these Terms of Service, you must discontinue using our Services and Products before the change takes place. Continued use will serve as an acceptance of the changed Terms of Service

which basically codifies that they can change the ToS to turn your shaper origin into a pay-per-use device, grant them ius primae noctis or whatever else evil things one can come up with... and the moment you turn on your (*sig*) shaper origin the next time you agree to let them charge your VISA per mm routed, to bend over and relax or comply with whatever else they might come up with. And in case you're not agreeing you, as of the first quote, only have the option to scrap the machine as you're legally unable to sell it as fit for the original purpose since you can not transfer the software license...

TL;DR: you have no rights.

I have pointed that out to them, politely, 3 months ago, together with a list of other things incompatible with how things work here in Europe. While they have used the last three months to change some of the (for them) worst things that I found with their offering... the issue of their ToS is still as-is. Having given them enough time (akin to responsible disclosure) to change this without effect... it's IMHO now reasonable to voice my dispraise for their terms of service and to advise others against spending money on a device that you will not own, a device that can be stopped to function without reason or notice, a device that when used in the advertised use scenario (while it's still functioning) will steal transfer the rights to your designs to someone else without compensation.

________________________________________________________________________
The terms of service of ShaperTools are unacceptable and should not be accepted.
As of that Shaper Origin is, while things stay that way, not worth it.

This guy again. Every, and I mean EVERY TOS has tons of mundane garbage in it!  There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great. If you bought 200 of them and resold them at a profit... those clauses make perfect sense.

I am sorry your black and white world accepts no grey areas.

Good day sir. I hope you find happiness in something in life.

Cheers. Bryan

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cochese]

I'd be way more concerned what happens if the company goes belly-up. Could the patterns be reporduced? Can there be custom firmware to get around that?

That sort of thing. I've become way more open to it lately.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=21412]bkharman[/member]  your inlay is very impressive. Seeing that I don’t see any reason for concern about the precision of the tool.

But, Gregor is right, the terms of service sucks. They’re not “mundane”, they’re draconian. Did they at least promise not to be evil?

 

[TSO_Products]

I'd be way more concerned what happens if the company goes belly-up. Could the patterns be reporduced? Can there be custom firmware to get around that?

That sort of thing. I've become way more open to it lately.

[member=26457]Cochese[/member]- "if the company goes belly-up..." - are you concerned that FESTOOL, as the owner,  will go belly up?
TSO used the Shaper to rout metal prototypes for some of our recent successful new product introductions.

Hans

 

[Cochese]

I'd be way more concerned what happens if the company goes belly-up. Could the patterns be reporduced? Can there be custom firmware to get around that?

That sort of thing. I've become way more open to it lately.

[member=26457]Cochese[/member]- "if the company goes belly-up..." - are you concerned that FESTOOL, as the owner,  will go belly up?
TSO used the Shaper to rout metal prototypes for some of our recent successful new product introductions.

Hans

I wasn’t aware TTS purchased them, but that doesn’t exactly make me feel any better about it. Not with some of the seemingly arbitrary availability concerns in NA.

 

[Banana]

TSO used the Shaper to rout metal prototypes for some of our recent successful new product introductions.

Hans

Hans, could you elaborate on best practices for routing aluminum using S.O.? (I think that's what you mean by 'metal').  Bits, max depth, number of passes, keeping blades clean etc.  - Thank you.

 

[Godhelm]

I have used my Origin to make some jigs - shapes cut out of 12mm ply for use on a router table with a trim bit. They are 30-40cm long. I haven't measured the accuracy but so far have found the following:

1. Manipulating the tool by hand needs practice. You get better at not moving the cutter away from the line and having it retract on you. It's ok if it moves away from the cut surface but if you move into it, you will probably cut out a chip.

2. It's essential to set an offset for all but the last cut. The last cut is meant as a "finishing cut", which suggests it's all about surface finish, but for me it is about moving the tool as smoothly as I can for this final cut so that the line of the cut doesn't have any imperfections. The tool is easier to control when you aren't cutting much material (i.e. to keep the directional movement smooth, but also the speed of traverse). If I cut a 40cm straight line, say, I can sand it lightly and have it so that when using the trim router, there are no imperfections transferred to the final piece. For long straight cuts, I might make a line with the Origin, then use a track-saw for the cut.

The big, big difference between the Origin and a flat-bed CNC is not this, however. It's that you have to move it yourself. If you have an hour of cutting to do, you need to move the machine around for an hour while you're standing next to it with ear protection on. This is tiring and you need absolute concentration the whole time. If you are doing things commercially and have enough shop space, having a flat-bed CNC would enable you use that hour for something else, even if you need to be in the vicinity just to keep an eye on it.

For me, working in a small workshop and not commercially, with the Origin, I can use my Festool MFT as a work surface and bring my CAD designs directly to the wood without needing to print them on paper and use bandsaw, belt sander, spindle sander etc. to cut them out. I love it  [smile]

Julian

 

[ryanjg117]

I would concur completely with [member=16022]JulianG[/member]. There is nothing like Shaper on the market, in terms of a CNC that fits into a systainer, but it isn't autonomous--and despite a good industrial design the ergonomics are quite poor. Pushing a router through wood for just an hour does a number on my back, and I'm often finding myself contorting into weird positions because Origin always needs to have an abundance of Shaper Tape in its field of view (forward facing camera). Skimp on tape, even a bit, and Shaper can jump around, ruining your workpiece. If that workpiece happens to be 3/4" baltic birch and you've already made five passes and are on a finishing pass when the mistake happens, you can imagine the frustration.

On more con to Shaper is that it's actually only 2D. Meaning it uses SVG files for cutting paths, but it's on you to remember the cut depth of your different machining steps. Something a true CNC handles automatically.

I'm at the point where I'm considering selling my Origin to fund a fixed CNC, but I'm holding out for a used industrial machine.

 

[Gregor]

This guy again.

Yes, someone still caring about laws and regulations these days... might be a rare occurence in some parts of the world.

Every, and I mean EVERY TOS has tons of mundane garbage in it!

Your whataboutism is relevant to this case in what way?

There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great.

That being the case, what's the point of having the exact opposite in the ToS?

If you bought 200 of them and resold them at a profit... those clauses make perfect sense.

Not even then, someone buying 200 and selling them for profit would just be a demonstration of a direct distribution model being sub-par enough to be beyond bad.

Did they at least promise not to be evil?

I take it that you have noticed how well that went with google?

 

[_pwawmo_]

Thanks to those who have given their experiences with the shaper it's really helpful to hear your thoughts. I'm very on the fence - watching their own well produced videos with the music in the background reels me in pretty successfully! If it lives up to all its claims then it's worth it just for that extra accuracy for situations where you would otherwise have to make a complex jig, or for actually making a complex jig or a template etc. But i'm really not sure if it does actually live up to it's claims and may be more hassle than it's worth with my money better spent elsewhere. From what you're saying it sounds like a clean cut is doable but can be a bit of a finickity process to achieve it consistently. With regards to actual numbers on accuracy, I'm still pretty in the dark about this, both with regards to: if i cut a small circle out, say 10cm diameter, what does that read on a pair of verniers?; Or if i need something larger say 800mm, what's the tolerance on that also?

I'm probably leaning away from the shaper atm and thinking of saving up a bit more for a small gantry system.. However, after following it for so long I'm still tempted to give it a go before dismissing it totally, so i might exercise their 30 day returns offer at some point - and feedback my thoughts to here for anyone who's interested..

*I'm not concerned about any of the T's & C's, maybe that could go in another post if it concerns you, keep this discussion to about the actual tool..!

 

[xedos]

To me the biggest drawback in a one man shop is that man has to be running Shaper. 

With a CNC , said man can program, load the material and then go do something else that generates revenue. 

It's an expensive jig maker, that your accountant probably wouldn't be too fond of. 

 

[rmhinden]

Interesting discussion.  I have been looking at the Shaper Origin for a while.  I can see it would be very nice for making curves and intricate shapes, that is something that don't currently have a good way of doing.    Great for making templates or one off items.

However, it is quite expensive, around $3K.  I think for that kind of investment a medium size CNC would be better value.  Assuming I could make room for it, of course.    Both the Shaper Origin and a CNC require learning a lot of software to use it well.

If it was in the $1000 to $1500 range, I might buy one.  Can't justify it at the current price.   

 

[ryanjg117]

There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great.

That being the case, what's the point of having the exact opposite in the ToS?

I also purchased my Shaper secondhand at an industrial auction. I had to contact Shaper support to get added to their user forum, but I received access to the forum and ShaperHub same-day. I'm not sure if they would honor a warranty on a device that is resold like Festool does as long as it's within the three year window, but there doesn't seem to be any issue with transferring devices.

The Ts and Cs will always advantage the corporation. I can think of scenarios where they would want to take ownership of content uploaded to their platform (e.g. to advertise the platform without having to license every individual item uploaded, or to remove content that is inappropriate). This is a cloud service as much as it is a hardware device, so of course since they are paying to manage the infrastructure they could turn it off without legal consequences... Customers would vote with their wallets and likely avoid Shaper like the plague, and potentially Festool as well. I think the likelihood of that happening, at least in the short/medium term, is extremely low. Knowing that I probably only have another 40 years on this planet, I've decided to concern myself with more pressing priorities.

And if you're really doubling up on your tinfoil hat, you could buy Shaper and simply never connect it to any cloud services, not connect it to you wi-fi network, etc. You will lose out on updates and you would have to load all of your designs by USB stick, but there's nothing they could do to disable the physical device.