Shaper Origin or 48 x 48 CNC?

peter halle

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I know that many on the forum have a Shaper Origin and I always look here for advice.  Later this year I am going to get either an Origin or a 48 x 48 CNC.  Cost differences and needed floor space for the large CNC are not a major hurdle.  But I am not looking to go larger than the footprint for 48 x 48 machine and its components.  In my relatively immediate plans will be to reproduce 1 kitchen and possibly start on a second.  After that I have more simplistic plans that could easily be accomplished by either machine.

So my questions to those who have Shapers, 1). When you decided on your Shaper had you also considered a traditional CNC, and if so, why the Shaper over the CNC?, and 2).  if you were to do it over again would you change your decision?  And to those who have a CNC, the same questions in reverse:  Why a CNC over a Shaper, and 2.) would you change your mind now?

Looking forward to relavent thoughts and advice.

Thank you.

Peter
 
It was a pretty easy decision for me: I was interested in traditional CNC, but didn't have the space.  I took a look at the Yeti Smartbench, since it's "portable", but I don't regret going the Shaper route.  Besides the compact size, there are some other selling points to SO: you can take the tool to the work, and about all you need to know is how to create an SVG.  The main downside for me is that you have to stand there and handle the tool for the entire job.  I definitely wouldn't want to make a set of cabinets with it.  TBH, I'd probably use a saw even if I had a standard CNC anyways.

Since I bought SO, I've also added Plate, Workstation, and I won autopass in a raffle.  They are all obnoxiously expensive, but I have to admit that they are a nice complement to the tool.  Autopass, in particular, is something I'd have a hard time living without.
 
cider said:
It was a pretty easy decision for me: I was interested in traditional CNC, but didn't have the space.  I took a look at the Yeti Smartbench, since it's "portable", but I don't regret going the Shaper route.  Besides the compact size, there are some other selling points to SO: you can take the tool to the work, and about all you need to know is how to create an SVG.  The main downside for me is that you have to stand there and handle the tool for the entire job.  I definitely wouldn't want to make a set of cabinets with it.  TBH, I'd probably use a saw even if I had a standard CNC anyways.

Since I bought SO, I've also added Plate, Workstation, and I won autopass in a raffle.  They are all obnoxiously expensive, but I have to admit that they are a nice complement to the tool.  Autopass, in particular, is something I'd have a hard time living without.
Sorry to expand, but cabinet type work, isn't the Shaper more a "details" tool - like holes, grooves etc. - while the stock cutting to size is done by the tracksaw (using marks made by SO) ? I just cannot imagine doing a mass-production of panels with Shaper, but even with a small CNC it just does not seem proper using a 1/4" bit to make the hundreds of yards of cuts ..

To me the Shaper always seemed more of an LR32 and MFS systems replacement and a traditional custom-work-CNC complement than a tracksaw/big CNC panel saw replacement ?

I have zero experience in big shops workflow, but always assumed that router-based CNCs are not used for cutting up boards unless it is a one-off custom stuff. Assumed (wrongly ?) that CNC panel saws are the thing for the base cabinetry stuff.

[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member]
sorry to ping, but would like to hear your take on the OP question .. similar Q is in my future as well. Those €500 for an MFS set, €500 for an OF1400 type router set, €500 for a TSO parallel guides set, plus a couple more, can be put toward a Shaper instead as well ..
 
mino said:
Sorry to expand, but cabinet type work, isn't the Shaper more a "details" tool - like holes, grooves etc.

To me the Shaper always seemed more of an LR32 and MFS systems replacement and a traditional custom-work-CNC complement than a tracksaw/big CNC panel saw replacement ?

Yeah, I definitely agree.  I don't have [member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] skill or experience, but I recently made cabinets for my shop (below) and never touched the SO (I realize they are very simple cabinets).  I have an LR32, so I've never tried SO for system holes, but seems like it would be a bit of a pain and use up a lot of tape?  Anyways, I do love SO for creating templates and mortising hardware.  I'd buy it again for sure.

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I don't have a shaper but do have CNC machines, I would see the Shaper as more a compliment to a CNC for 2.5D work or small fiddly items, etc, not so much 3D with the 43mm limit on Z travel. Given a hard choice between them, the longer value plan in my mind would be the machine.

Already having machines if I was able to get a Shaper cheap enough I'd grab one for inlay work, but it's a bit of a moot point as I can create a single template to suit a hand held router and guide ring and use that many times, and achieve the same goal probably far quicker than setting up and using the Shaper.
 
I have both.

The Shaper is best for smaller tasks. Set up is faster for one offs.

This sample pattern was made with the Shaper, once approved the door was routed with the Shaper. The design was created in Fusion 360.

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These hinges were routed in with the Shaper. My CNC does not have C capability.

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These flush pull pockets were routed with the Shaper.

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My CNC is a 5x12 with auto load/unload.

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The machine can process up to 50 sheets a day which includes holes, grooves and cut to size.

Tom

 

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Why not get both? 

Just a word of advice, if you are planning on processing 4x sheet goods, consider a 5x5 CNC or larger, hold down of sheet goods will be easier. 

It is much easier to place the sheet material on the CNC with ATC and let it do all of the work rather than breaking down the sheets and loading on the machine.

I have a 5 x 6 with ATC.  I can load the 4x8 on the bed, cut the first panels -and pull the sheet forward for the rest of the drop. For longer requirements than the 72" travel, I can tile the tool-paths on the Y axis.  Just takes some 8mm dowels for referencing in the spoilboard.

 
Peter Halle said:
In my relatively immediate plans will be to reproduce 1 kitchen and possibly start on a second.  After that I have more simplistic plans that could easily be accomplished by either machine.

I went through this decision a couple years ago and chose a CNC primarily because the applications I had in mind were small and/or 3D, for which the CNC is better.

If you're going to inlay floors or work on pieces larger than the CNC bed can handle, then the SO is the obvious choice.
If you're going to make 3D wooden objects, like puzzles or (in my case) 3D hexagonal stair newell caps out of two different woods such that you need 12 pieces to sum up to 360 degrees and bevel upwards, then the CNC is the obvious choice.

If you wanted something to do M&T joints, especially at angles (eg chairs) or mortise for hinges and the like, the SO for sure. A 4x4 CNC, however, is big enough that for kitchen cabinet sides you can do all the hinge mortising and shelf holes unattended, leaving you to do something else at the same time.

Think of the SO as a computer-guided router. Almost all (maybe actually all) things you do with a hand-held router can be done more accurately and with better repeatability on the SO. Part of me thinks combining the SO with the Shark router table (power lift and fence) is kind of an awesome combination for modern woodworking.

There was a thread recently here about someone who built a nice chair (or two) using the SO. He made some mistakes along the way and had to fill-in and re-do some mortises. So, there is definitely a learning curve with the SO, as there is with the CNC.

But, I believe which is better comes down to which projects you anticipate you'll be using it for.
 
Shaper for insitu almost seat of the pants cuts.  It's the world's most expensive hole saw.  The lack of toolpath programming (SVG color coding does not count) makes it really fast for new materials and new situations.  You can viably backoff quicker than a CNC. 

However, I would not want to do N cabinets on the Shaper Origin.  1 prototype cuts + 1 final is all I'd want to do.
 
Also, insitu offsets are nice... Like Really nice.  You don't have the back-and-forth soul suck that running back to re-export a CAM path and goto the specific exec line that traditional CNC has.  You also don't have to worry about your Z steppers losing power while you were messing with your computer.
 
I have used the Origin for about 3 years.  it excels in many areas but it is not something you want to use for repetitive pieces. By that I mean if you need 50 identical parts, a flat bed machine would be much better. The workstation is a must have accessory if you are doing small projects. It's also nice that you can make adjustments to the file on the fly without the need for a laptop. This machine will not replace a flat bed and vice versa. The each have their own niche to fill. 
 
A couple years ago I considered the same Sharper vs. CNC options.  I ended up with a Onefinity Journeyman for a few reasons:

1. I had the space.  My Journeyman sits on a 54” X 78” (1372mm X 1880) table I built.  This includes space for the Journeyman/spoil board, controller, monitor, dust collections, etc.  Overall my shop has about 1125 sq. ft. (104 sq. m.).  I don’t however have the space for a CNC that would handle full sheet of plywood without other compromises.  Plus I don’t have many needs to route bigger material than the Journeyman holds.

2. Repetitive tasks.  Some of my known usage would be repetitive.  I wanted to be able to set it up, start the job, walk away, and do something else.  The more I use I the more I trust walking away for longer running programs.

3.  Mobility.  I personally don’t have any need for moving the router to the material.  Material for me has always been a moveable input.

4.  Reviews.  At the time I purchased the Journeyman had good reviews compared to other machines in its class/price range.

5.  Dust collection.  I wanted to be able to use my Jet dust collector.  There are some excellent third party dust collection and hose/cord management solutions available. 

I am happy with my decision.  Onefinity has provided me good service, the machine was terrifically packaged for shipping and has run without issue aside from my mistakes.  CNCs like this are very capable.  I suspect whichever route you go you will find more uses over time. 
 
[member=61254]mino[/member] no need to apologize. I enjoy my time here learning as much as I hope to help.
Yes I have both and an opinion [big grin]
The shop where I work has two 5' x 12' CNC machines. One has auto-loading and unloading, much like the one [member=4105]tjbnwi[/member] posted. The other is effectively the same machine, but full manual material handling.
These are high-speed production machines, far from the hobbyist type unit that most guys would have in a home shop. They cut full-depth with 3/8" diameter diamond bits at a feed rate that would be shocking to anyone, seeing it for the first time.
The "main" one runs cabinet parts almost continuously. The secondary unit is there for pretty much anything else, plus a back-up to the other, if something would go wrong. The manual loading makes things go slower, but it can still go. This is the one I use to make reception desk parts, however, I'm just a dummy "operator". I don't do any of the programming or out-put to it at all. If I need something that they didn't anticipate (or need it modified and re-done) I have to go to someone else. For big parts (or repetitive parts) that what I do, but small custom stuff? That where the Shaper Origin comes in.
I originally bought it (it's mine, not the company's) to expand my abilities and learn how to use it, but later discovered how helpful it could be in my work too.
For what I do with it there, it's great. For what I do with it, messing around on Saturdays, for my personal stuff (joinery etc) it's great too.
As has been mentioned above, it takes your involvement. It is not a "walk away" thing, like a table-mounted CNC can be. That takes some experience and a broken bit or 20 to actually come to reality though.
Work-holding is the main obstacle that has to be worked out with either system. Those big industrial machines have vacuum tables (and even those fail occasionally) but that is well beyond all but the top 1% of hobby users (and even a lot of small professional shops) That's where clamps, plastic nails, screws, double sided tape, etc all come to play. Plus you have to deal with internal parts as they get cut free. With a vacuum table, the parts just sit there (for the most part  [blink]) but with clamped or screwed sheets, that's not the case. This is another thing to be aware of.
The speed/feed thing is not as much of a deal with the Origin, because it is far more feed-back driven. You have ahold of it, same as any other router. It only moves by your hand and you have to be aware of where you are going and how fast. The hand effort is the same as any other router. That's not to say you can't break a bit, those tiny ones don't take much, but it is far less likely.
With a table mounted CNC, that is the big learning curve, after you have the programming figured out.
Most guys go through quite a few bits adjusting for feed rate.
so, after all of that....which? it totally depends on what you want to do.
If you want to carve signs or make multiple copies of some "widget", where you can "set it and forget it" , the full CNC is the way to go. If you want to do joinery or inlays or a giant star in the middle of your dinning room floor, the Origin is much more versatile. It's slower, requires more input from you, and is not really the best way for multiple identical items, but it can do things that even those big industrial machines can't.
I have been weighing this myself. As some of you know, I'm going to be retiring pretty soon and I have thought about getting a stationary CNC machine for my home shop. I don't know that I need it, but it seems like the next logical step? but maybe not? at this point, I'm not in any kind of production mentality.
The other draw-back to the Origin may not apply to some, again depending on what you want to do.
It does not have control of the Z axis during the cut, not really, yet anyway. It does in the aspect of AutoPass, it can go deeper as it follows the path, but only to the next step. It cannot "carve" lettering with a V bit, where the line-weight changes because of bit depth. Again, if you don't need that, no loss, though it may happen someday on an update. Even the most basic hobby machines can do that though.

Cabinets? No, the Origin is definitely not the way I would go about that, neither is a "half-sheet" CNC. 
Can they? Sure, but it would be far more of a struggle than is has to be. Even if you wanted to do it with a CNC, you would be better-off cutting your sides out with a saw and setting those parts onto the table for the back groove, shelf pin holes, hinge plate holes, maybe dowel holes, etc. Then just swap in the next piece and hit the button again. This would only be a "walk away" if you could do it all with the same bit, which is not likely. Not the end of the world, but not the speed advantage that you might think.
Track saw, LR32 system, router table and Domino is how I would go about it, in a home shop.

I hope this makes sense, I feel a bit all over the place, but it's a very deep subject, where we need more input.

 
[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] first I was jealous of your work workmanship.  Next I was jealous of your workplace setup (space, tool layout, assembly table, etc.).  Then couple weeks ago I was envious of your router line up.  Just when my envy starts to fade I learn you have access to two 5X12 CNCs and your Origin.  What’s next? 😀😀
 
[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] the nicest thing about all those bigger cabinet shops switching to the big auto load CNC equipment is a bunch of Euro sliders hitting the secondary market.

Recently an F45 Altendorff popped up on Facebook Marketplace about 2 hours away that looked in like new shape for a very good price. If I had a bigger shop i would have gone and gotten it.

I routinely see those and SCMI, Felder and the likes for sale at decent prices.

Ron
 
[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member]

At my shops altitude the machine has 3 vacuum pumps with the third having twice the capacity of the 2 on board pumps combined. We still have to use onion skins and tabs to keep parts from flying around the shop.

I’ve been considering going to diamond bits with heat shrink holders. Mind asking if the operators think they’re worth the added expense? I do send the carbides out to be sharpened.

Tom
 
[member=28223]SoonerFan[/member] have you seen any of my posts about the Beam Saw? That thing is fantastic. It has improved everything about cutting sheet material.

Then there is the storage system with the gantry crane. I never have to lift, carry, handle full size sheets of anything. The crane brings it to the saw, and all I have to do is spin the sheet around on an air-cushion table.

Sorry if it's too much  [unsure] But I spent the first 15 years of my employment doing all of this by hand. (we had a CNC machine, but nothing like it is now)
The bosses knew where the bottlenecks were and heavily invested in getting past them. The speed of what I can do has increased by a huge margin and the safety factor cannot be overstated.
Plus, that system has 100% account of inventory. It can stack 3/4" material up to 100 pieces high, there are thousands of sheets in there right now(and it knows where every one of them is located.)
The really cool thing is that you can tell it what you want for the next day and it will sort through and stack it all for you overnight and there is no waiting in the morning.
There is nothing worse than wasting time trying to find a specific sheet, jumbled in a stack, or somewhere in a pallet rack. (which is how we used to do it) huge waste of time.

BTW, I only have access to one....I wouldn't touch that main production machine.  [smile]
 
tjbnwi said:
[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member]

At my shops altitude the machine has 3 vacuum pumps with the third having twice the capacity of the 2 on board pumps combined. We still have to use onion skins and tabs to keep parts from flying around the shop.

I’ve been considering going to diamond bits with heat shrink holders. Mind asking if the operators think they’re worth the added expense? I do send the carbides out to be sharpened.

Tom

Yeah, Tom I can imagine that loss of pressure is a huge factor. I'm not saying we don't lose a part now and then, but not often, especially on the main machine where it is cutting Melamine or pre-laimnated panels. They are stable. It's the plywood that I use for reception desk parts that is the biggest source of moved parts. You can place a perfectly flat sheet down and once it starts cutting, release some tension, and things warp. Long skinny parts, too near the front edge, are the most common. Also (as I'm sure you know, but others may not) as the program runs and more material is removed the pumps are now experiencing a vacuum loss through the gaps between parts. It's easy to suck down a whole 4' x 8' sheet, but cut it up with a 3/8 diameter bit, at a violent speed and see what happens. Well, most of the time , nothing dramatic, you just have to collect the parts and start the next sheet  [big grin]
Once in a while though, it will push one, right off on the floor. Hopefully, it's to the back, so the laser safety shield doesn't see it. Sometimes they do onionskin some smaller parts, but then I have to deal with cutting them apart and flush-trimming. We have been talking about going with tabs as an easier to post-process alternative, but it hasn't happened yet. It's not a big enough issue to get immediate attention.

The diamond bits are fantastic. They will outlast your regular stuff by a mile. There is one huge caution with them though. They are very brittle at the edges. You absolutely cannot measure the diameter with calipers. You can't touch those things with anything harder than wood. It sounds silly, because it will plow though partical board, plywood, solid surface, HPL, at break-neck speed, but calipers will kill it in 1 second flat. Our main operator learned that the hard way. twice  [eek]
The only thing I would question is the heat-shrink holders. They are great, don't get me wrong, but there's a thing to work out with your sharpener/supplier, and that is removing/replacing the bit. They charge you for that, of course, but it depends on how much and how often you need to do it.
The bosses looked into getting the heater thing to do it in-house, but so far have elected to stay with letting the service do it.
We send all of the other bits out for sharpening too (carbide) It's only the primary cut-out bit that is diamond. The ones for grooving backs, etc. are normal carbide.
We switched some of the production away from the CNC though. Now that there are a couple of guys who have been trained well enough to do it, they don't waste CNC time on cabinet backs anymore. All of those get done on the Beam Saw.

Do you guys use dowels for carcass construction?

For people who have never seen anything like this, it's so odd to watch this machine go out in the middle of nowhere and start drilling holes. They look like nothing you would recognize, then it comes back with another bit and starts cutting grooves, again looking dis-jointed. When it gets the big bit and starts cutting out the panels, it all makes sense, but that's the last operation.
 
[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member]

We do not use dowels. I do not have ann edge driller. Maybe some day.

We use screws to assemble the cases. The machine drills the panel holes, the assembler uses these holes as a guide to drill the edges of the panels.

How do they check the bit diameter if they can’t use calipers or do they come “pre-measured”?

Tom

 
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