Cheese
Member
Amazon Prime still has their delivery trucks out on Sundays...there were several circulating the neighborhood today.
Shaper origin Z axis truly 2d
- Thread starter Bertotti
- Start date
Hi Everyone
I have been reading this thread as contributions arrive as I am interested in having a test drive of the Shaper.
Right now (and without ever playing with a machine or even seeing someone using one close up) I believe that the 2D/3D aspect is not a huge factor for the sort of work that the tool has been designed for. The cutting of an even depth groove or rebate is easily achieved and separate jobs/toolpaths can be created if a change in depth is required.
The key advantage of the Shaper is that you take the tool to the job. Getting a door or a section of worktop into my CNC would be impossible but the Shaper can go into the kitchen where the worktop sits or the room where the door might be and do whatever is required. This is exactly the factor that convinced me to buy my Domino machines and sell my big morticing machine - you take the tool to the job rather than struggle to take the job to the tool.
My only concern, and this really is just me, is that I do almost all of my design work in Draftsight (similar to AutoCAD). For the majority of my CNC work I use Aspire from the start as it is very simple to use. I like the idea of creating the jobs in a drawing environment on a PC with a big screen. Perhaps this can be done with the Shaper.
Once I get my hands on a machine I will make a video which (I hope) will explain the detail of using the tool. What a pity the majority of woodworking shows have been cancelled this year.
Peter
I have been reading this thread as contributions arrive as I am interested in having a test drive of the Shaper.
Right now (and without ever playing with a machine or even seeing someone using one close up) I believe that the 2D/3D aspect is not a huge factor for the sort of work that the tool has been designed for. The cutting of an even depth groove or rebate is easily achieved and separate jobs/toolpaths can be created if a change in depth is required.
The key advantage of the Shaper is that you take the tool to the job. Getting a door or a section of worktop into my CNC would be impossible but the Shaper can go into the kitchen where the worktop sits or the room where the door might be and do whatever is required. This is exactly the factor that convinced me to buy my Domino machines and sell my big morticing machine - you take the tool to the job rather than struggle to take the job to the tool.
My only concern, and this really is just me, is that I do almost all of my design work in Draftsight (similar to AutoCAD). For the majority of my CNC work I use Aspire from the start as it is very simple to use. I like the idea of creating the jobs in a drawing environment on a PC with a big screen. Perhaps this can be done with the Shaper.
Once I get my hands on a machine I will make a video which (I hope) will explain the detail of using the tool. What a pity the majority of woodworking shows have been cancelled this year.
Peter
squall_line
Member
Peter Parfitt said:
I used Draftsight about 10 years ago to visualize layouts for a Class A CDL (semi truck / LGV / HGV) training program and it's driving and backing range. It took me a bit to get used to, but once I did, it was a far sight better than anything else I could get my hands on for free.
I believe that Draftsight can export directly to SVG, which should then be able to be ingested by the Shaper Origin. You may be closer to using it than you think!
Edit to add: I look forward to seeing a Peter Parfitt video on Shaper Origin! I expect quite a few "brilliant"s, although I imagine there might also be a few places where things are a bit dodgy.
WillAdams
Member
One CAD application which has a direct facility for exporting the SVG is LibreCAD which has an option for exporting to MakerCAM SVG --- I use it often to fix problematic DXFs.
squall_line said:I believe that Draftsight can export directly to SVG, which should then be able to be ingested by the Shaper Origin. You may be closer to using it than you think!
Edit to add: I look forward to seeing a Peter Parfitt video on Shaper Origin! I expect quite a few "brilliant"s, although I imagine there might also be a few places where things are a bit dodgy.
Hi [member=75217]squall_line[/member]
Yes, Draftsight can export to .svg but I have not tried it to see if it works with the Shaper. Draftsight is no longer free but I believe that it is so good that the £90 a year is worth every penny.
Fingers crossed that I can get hold of a Shaper before something else comes along to displace it.
Cheers.
Peter
squall_line
Member
As I was thinking about this last night (no idea why it was in my head), my understanding of how the Shaper Origin works is that it can compensate for user error to hold a straight line by moving the head in the X and Y planes, relative to the tape on the surface. I don't know what sort of feed rate this auto-correction is able to handle, but I would imagine that there are upper limits on that (the only lower limit would be your burn risk)
Compensating for X & Y error correction is a fairly easily-solvable problem (to wit, they've solved it), and solving for Z-height on-the-fly for relief cuts with a CNC is a solvable problem when you know the feed rate. Trying to change the height on the fly without a consistent feed rate and compensate for user X/Y error at the same time? Probably solvable, but maybe not currently within the margins that would be acceptable to most consumers. I think it's a mechanical limitation more than a computational/processing limitation, personally (this is what my brain was thinking of last night, at least).
That said, since the depth can be programmed and controlled by zeroing out "in an emergency", maybe the reason they don't want to make it attach to a design is because the depth of cut also depends on how deep you start your bit in the collet? The .1" / .01" example earlier is a pretty good example of this.
Compensating for X & Y error correction is a fairly easily-solvable problem (to wit, they've solved it), and solving for Z-height on-the-fly for relief cuts with a CNC is a solvable problem when you know the feed rate. Trying to change the height on the fly without a consistent feed rate and compensate for user X/Y error at the same time? Probably solvable, but maybe not currently within the margins that would be acceptable to most consumers. I think it's a mechanical limitation more than a computational/processing limitation, personally (this is what my brain was thinking of last night, at least).
That said, since the depth can be programmed and controlled by zeroing out "in an emergency", maybe the reason they don't want to make it attach to a design is because the depth of cut also depends on how deep you start your bit in the collet? The .1" / .01" example earlier is a pretty good example of this.
HowardH
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,573
Having had a SO for a year with quite a bit of trial and error behind me, I have a few observations. It's really good at compensating between the X and Y axis's but within limitations. This is a hand held machine and there is definitely a learning curve on how fast you move laterally and stay within the reticle to keep the machine from raising the bit if you wander outside of the circle. There a lot of factors involved, i.e. the depth of cut, the size of the bit, the material being cut, changes in density and grain direction. More importantly, there is the human factor which introduces all kinds of variables a flat bed machine wouldn't have to contend with. It would be, IMO, very difficult to program in a moving Z depth while using the machine. How far you put the bit into the collet isn't a factor because once a bit is inserted and tightened, there is a Z touch feature you must do in order for the machine to get the correct depth of cut. This machine wasn't designed for 3d work. However, if you cut a lot of hinge mortices, design templates, or work in large fields like hardwood floors, there is nothing else like it. I'm finding new uses for it all the time.
Crazyraceguy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2015
- Messages
- 4,986
Yes, I imagine that trying to control that 3rd axis at the same time would get very complicated and somewhat outside the scope of the design.HowardH said:
As far as "new uses", I came up with one today. Turns out that the Origin is the world's more expensive holesaw...lol. I needed a fairly precise 4.5" hole in a piece of plywood. In times past, I would have pulled out a router with a trammel baseplate. That would definitely work, but it does require some kind of way to secure the center point when the cut completes to keep from cutting into the side. It also requires a hole for the center pin, although there are ways around that too. Shaper doesn't have any of those limitations, plus you can adjust the size of the hole after it is cut. A couple of strips of tape and you can put that hole anywhere.
An application question. If you had something to route in the side of an existing cabinet hanging on a wall would that be possible? I have watched a bunch of vids but they are always on the workbench or capable of scanning the whole area including the corners. But hanging on a wall you may only be able to scan 2 or three corners. Would that be an issue?
HowardH
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,573
I suppose it would be possible by placing tape on the vertical surface. The machine doesn't know or care about it's orientation. Sounds like you are referring to using grid lines. If that's the case, you only need one corner to establish the grid. You can measure in from there to establish a starting point. Scanning the entire workpiece is great when you can do it as you will be able to visually place the file instead of using measurements. However, it's a pretty heavy machine and I think it would be almost impossible to safely carry out such an operation. Not to mention being able to stay within the boundaries without fighting gravity.
Well, I went in to buy one today and the guy asked me to come back Monday because they weren't sure how to bill it out under the current incentive. So I'll go back Monday. That was a bit disappointing but it will soon be mine. Thanks, everyone for helping me make this decision.
I am curious if anyone uses a vacuum table to hold their pieces in place? I do not have one but wondered about it, rather than using tape all the time. Probably a seriously bad idea but I have never used a vacuum table so I have no idea.
Do you have a preferred double-sided tape? Thanks!
Do you have a preferred double-sided tape? Thanks!
Michael Kellough
Member
Vacuum will work as long as the workpiece is larger than the vacuum area and you won't be perforating the workpiece.
I prefer to capture the workpiece from the sides with blue tape, using double stick as a last resort.
If three sides are taped well (tape folded into the intersection of the work and support surface) so that the tape has to be sheared lengthwise to fail, it holds the workpiece very well laterally. It is possible to lift the workpiece taped this way but the router is usually holding it down.
I fold a tab on one end of the tape strip so it's easy to remove. Getting double stick tape separated from the liner and off the work is what makes me try to avoid using it.
The double stick tape the Shaper people use is Intertape 591.
I prefer to capture the workpiece from the sides with blue tape, using double stick as a last resort.
If three sides are taped well (tape folded into the intersection of the work and support surface) so that the tape has to be sheared lengthwise to fail, it holds the workpiece very well laterally. It is possible to lift the workpiece taped this way but the router is usually holding it down.
I fold a tab on one end of the tape strip so it's easy to remove. Getting double stick tape separated from the liner and off the work is what makes me try to avoid using it.
The double stick tape the Shaper people use is Intertape 591.
rmhinden
Member
I use this Intertape 591 Premium Double Sided Golf Grip Tape from Amazon. I think it's the same as what Shaper tools sells.
Thanks! I have had all weekend to go through the tutorials and help on the shaper website. I see they recommend that tape as well. Sadly I can't find it here. I'll have to order some online and hopefully figure out if one of the alternatives here is a suitable local replacement.
Infinity Tools also has a really good double sided tape. Not sure if it's the same brand that Shaper Tools sells, but it's a Made in the USA tape.
I've used both the narrow and the wide tape from Infinity on numerous projects. It has crazy holding power (if you remember to apply pressure to the workpiece) and it removes easily without residue left behind.
They also have a ton of good bits to look at for using with the Shaper Origin(or any other router you might have). If you're ordering tape, might as well get some bits and make it over the free shipping threshold.
I've used both the narrow and the wide tape from Infinity on numerous projects. It has crazy holding power (if you remember to apply pressure to the workpiece) and it removes easily without residue left behind.
They also have a ton of good bits to look at for using with the Shaper Origin(or any other router you might have). If you're ordering tape, might as well get some bits and make it over the free shipping threshold.
