Shhhhh! Sawstop will release new portable jobsite table saw shortly!!

[SittingElf]

Resistance is futile! [crying]

I've tried to just stay quiet and leave the thread to the purpose for which it was intended, but I feel compelled to clear up some serious conspiracy theories spouted here, as well as outright falsehoods that have no basis in fact.

1. While Gass most assuredly would like to see his invention mandated, he would be willing to license the technology to other companies on a royalty basis. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We do not live in a communist society where personal inventions are deemed to be subject to eminent domain and absconded by government agencies.

2. Patent applications are EXPENSIVE!!! VERY EXPENSIVE!!!  My brother is an electrical design engineer. He owns roughly 28 patents on everything from military drone innards to a radical and highly efficient vertical wind turbine design.  Each of his patents cost between $7000-$12000 to investigate, process and receive final approval. That is the norm.  Those fees have to be recovered through marketing and sales.... or in this case the addition of royalties. It is the right of the patent owner to profit from his inventions.

3. The innuendo that there are many false activations of the SawStop brake system is simply horsedung!  The system has a self test feature that checks the continuity of the system prior to turning on the saw. Additionally, it is possible for a wet piece of wood to activate the brake, but this is strongly addressed in the SawStop manual. First, you can check the wood with the self-test system for surface problems that might cause an activation. Further, if you have ANY doubt about the moisture level in a item to be cut, the saw has a key operated temporary bypass system that will disable the brake until the suspect wood is cut.
There have been a number of cases where idiots decide to show their friends how the brake works, by using a hotdog on their own saws. When they then realize that they are now out $69.00 for a new brake, as well as the probable cost of a new blade...some have called SawStop claiming that the brake activated "all by itself". That BS doesn't hold water, and Sawstop is well aware of these claims. High Schools have the highest number of purpously activated brake incidents...again with delinquency involved.

4. There are an average of more than 8000 tablesaw accidents each year in the USA. The medical and economic costs are in the BILLIONS. I strongly suggest that those of you that poo poo the SawStop, go to their website and read and view some of the testimonials....not only from SawStop owners, but from many who have lost fingers from Saw accidents.

5. PTI is no different than the car manufacturers in the past who vehemently opposed mandatory seat belts.

6. The more than 50,000 people who have purchased a SawStop tablesaw did NOT just buy the saw for the safety system. The design of the saws, tight tolerances, exceptional quality control, fit and finish, operation, accuracy, and unparalleled assembly instructions are the best in the industry. Gass may be making himself unlikeable as an individual, but he sure does know how to design a heck of a saw.

7. In addition to the tablesaws, I am aware that for years, he has been working on a safety system of some sort for bandsaws. It's a different animal, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some type of system come into fruition down the road.

If you haven't taken a live look at one of their saws, or even better yet, actually used one, you really don't have standing to criticize or state false claims about either Gass, or the company.

Full Disclosure: I am not attached in any way to Sawstop. As stated earlier, I was an original beta tester of their 3HP PCS cabinet saw and received the saw at a significant discount to fully test and make recommendations for adjustments and additions. My saw was upgraded to the final production model after those of us who were testing completed our beta. The support we received was on par with Apple's support, and every suggestion taken seriously....many incorporated into the final product.  I plan to sell my current PCS saw and upgrade to a 5HP Single Phase ICS unit in the next 6-12 months. Don't really need the extra power or size, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the best saw in existence, from safety features to dust collection...and I gotta have it! [big grin]

Oh yeah, I forgot.... SawStop now also has a super-accurate slider available as a direct attachment to their saws, as well as a custom outfeed table designed for their saws. Mobility system for the saws is unmatched and hydraulically operated. Awesome!

Cheers,

Frank

 

[elfick]

I came across this in a google search. I've never seen the site before and I haven't read the whole article, but they quote plenty of sources and seem fairly balanced. http://www.fairwarning.org/2013/05/after-more-than-a-decade-and-thousands-disfiguring-injuries-power-tool-industry-resisting-safety-solution/

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I know several production supervisors in huge cabinet factories.  They were pretty much forced to replace a perfectly good saw with one of these things, due to insurance and management bs. 

No one is very happy with their preformance in a 2 shift production environment. 

I guess they are great for people who shouldn't be trusted to run a saw unsupervised.

 

[SittingElf]

I guess they are great for people who shouldn't be trusted to run a saw unsupervised.

Stories like the following excerpt below from one of the articles is not unique amongst PROFESSIONAL shops regarding SawStop Saves.

An example of those who have profited, both economically and medically:

Gerald Wheeler had other numbers on his mind as he watched hot dog meet blade that day in August, 2002. As the operator of a wood shop in Hot Springs, Ark., Wheeler was all too aware of the unforgiving nature of table saws. Not long before, two of his employees had been maimed within a few weeks of each other. Wheeler felt awful about the injuries, the loss of two good workers, the $95,000 in medical bills, the doubling of his workers compensation rates.

Wheeler thought: If only this had come along sooner. He took out his Visa card to order two of the saws, but was told none were available. As the SawStop guys explained, they had been seeking licensing deals with the big power tool makers, but had found no takers.

When Sawstop started actually building their own saws:

Gerald Wheeler, who had been wowed by the hot dog show, got two of the first saws. In March, 2006, Carl Seymour, a foreman at his shop, accidentally touched a whirring blade. A photo on SawStop’s website shows Seymour beaming in triumph as he lifts the wounded thumb, which looks like it has a paper cut.

“You couldn’t wipe the smile off him (Seymour) after this,” Wheeler told FairWarning, saying he, too, was “totally ecstatic.” All saws should have this technology, Wheeler said. “I mean, we’re dealing with human beings.”

I suppose that you consider all the 8000 plus tablesaw accidents every year the result of people who "shouldn't be trusted..", like the professionals mentioned above.

Kind of elitist attitude IMHO.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

If you want to take it that way, go ahead.  Like I said, not very well regarded by production shops, but put there pretty much by force. 

if we all wore helmets all the time, I am sure there would be less head injuries too. 

Seems some can't handle a difference of opinion without calling some one an elitist. 

I am not sure what that even means. 

 

[jimbo51]

Alex,

Thanks for the information on the costs. I had previously seen a much higher figure for the licensing so I am surprised at the 3% rate.

I still do not see how this technology would only add $100 to the price of a saw when the brake module alone sells for about $70-80.

We will know the answers in a few years when the new crop of saws with blade stopping technologies arrive on the market. I will not predict a new bottom price again but I still think it will be well above $300.

If I were to buy a portable saw, it would be used in set construction for community theater. In that environment, a blade stopping saw does make sense. However, the possible 80 lb weight for Sawstop is maybe even a bigger issue for my aging body than the $1300 would be to my more limited income in retirement. I may well wait to see what Deealt brings to market.

 

[mouppe]

JMB, I would assume in this scenario you would just use the wet wood override.

 

[Paul G]

I could use a better portable table saw, wouldn't mind it being a sawstop, assuming similar quality to their other models. Not sure why this continues to be so controversial, so what if the guy tried to legislate his way to success, as if he was the first to use lawmaking to further his business lol. He failed and moved on to making a good product.

 

[promark747]

4. There are an average of more than 8000 tablesaw accidents each year in the USA. The medical and economic costs are in the BILLIONS

The 8,000 number seems reasonable, but I doubt the costs are in the billions.

A bit off topic, but has Gass ever explained why he's never used his actual finger to demonstrate the brake mechanism?  (As far as I know, there has never been a case where SS did not activate.)  I'm not saying he should do it all the time, but maybe for his main product commercial it would have been even more impressive than the hot dog.  I wonder if he actually was willing to try it on his finger, but was warned by lawyers that it would encourage copying and he didn't want the exposure.

 

[greg mann]

If you want to take it that way, go ahead.  Like I said, not very well regarded by production shops, but put there pretty much by force. 

if we all wore helmets all the time, I am sure there would be less head injuries too. 

Seems some can't handle a difference of opinion without calling some one an elitist. 

I am not sure what that even means.

Darcy,

While I always appreciate your straightforward and to the point style, I need to disagree on this one. It means 'It's never going to happen to me because I am too smart." No one ever comes out of the womb knowing how to operate a tablesaw. It has to be learned. I am 66 and have never been involved in a car accident in which I was a driver. Skill? Probably some, but surely luck as well. When I think about how I drove as a young man I know I have been lucky. I did not know what I did not know. And, anyone who has driven a car for long and is honest knows they have made mistakes that could have been really bad, but wound up not being so. I have been lucky to never hurt myself and, more importantly, never hurt anyone else, but I still wear my seatbelt.

It seems you are pretty much a one man band. That's cool, but if you have employees you have a responsibility to keep them safe, even from themselves, and especially when they are learning their craft. Machines have various safety devices that operators find inconvenient and don't appreciate. We all know they sometimes get disabled and bad things happen. We often learn our greatest lessons from events no one would ever wish upon us, but being able to learn without paying a dear price is worth a lot. From your posts I know you have a young daughter. For her sake, if not your own, you need to be safe. I am not saying you don't work safely, but please don't think it can't happen to you.

 

[SittingElf]

4. There are an average of more than 8000 tablesaw accidents each year in the USA. The medical and economic costs are in the BILLIONS

The 8,000 number seems reasonable, but I doubt the costs are in the billions.

A bit off topic, but has Gass ever explained why he's never used his actual finger to demonstrate the brake mechanism?  (As far as I know, there has never been a case where SS did not activate.)  I'm not saying he should do it all the time, but maybe for his main product commercial it would have been even more impressive than the hot dog.  I wonder if he actually was willing to try it on his finger, but was warned by lawyers that it would encourage copying and he didn't want the exposure.

Not true.  Gass HAS used his own finger and had it filmed with super speed cams.  I think you can find the video on YouTube.  The proof is in the pudding! [big grin]

Cheers,

Frank

EDIT:  I found the video. Watch to the end.
Steve Gass uses own finger to prove product.

 

[andvari]

If you want to take it that way, go ahead.  Like I said, not very well regarded by production shops, but put there pretty much by force. 

Just about every safety innovation in mechanical production environments has had to be forced in over management objections.

For example in the mining industry currently the accidental death rate is 1 in 100,000. One hundred years ago it was 300 times higher. And even today we have problems with companies trying to skirt safety rules. There was a tragic accident in 2010 that killed 28 miners; $209 million in fines and some criminal convictions for intentionally trying to impede safety enforcement efforts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Big_Branch_Mine_disaster

The following outlines this history of industrial saftey:

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/history-of-workplace-safety-in-the-united-states-1880-1970/

It's interesting reading.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

If you want to take it that way, go ahead.  Like I said, not very well regarded by production shops, but put there pretty much by force. 

if we all wore helmets all the time, I am sure there would be less head injuries too. 

Seems some can't handle a difference of opinion without calling some one an elitist. 

I am not sure what that even means.

Darcy,

While I always appreciate your straightforward and to the point style, I need to disagree on this one. It means 'It's never going to happen to me because I am too smart." No one ever comes out of the womb knowing how to operate a tablesaw. It has to be learned. I am 66 and have never been involved in a car accident in which I was a driver. Skill? Probably some, but surely luck as well. When I think about how I drove as a young man I know I have been lucky. I did not know what I did not know. And, anyone who has driven a car for long and is honest knows they have made mistakes that could have been really bad, but wound up not being so. I have been lucky to never hurt myself and, more importantly, never hurt anyone else, but I still wear my seatbelt.

It seems you are pretty much a one man band. That's cool, but if you have employees you have a responsibility to keep them safe, even from themselves, and especially when they are learning their craft. Machines have various safety devices that operators find inconvenient and don't appreciate. We all know they sometimes get disabled and bad things happen. We often learn our greatest lessons from events no one would ever wish upon us, but being able to learn without paying a dear price is worth a lot. From your posts I know you have a young daughter. For her sake, if not your own, you need to be safe. I am not saying you don't work safely, but please don't think it can't happen to you.

You just made my point in more words. 

They are put in environments where the people that use them are often referred to as warm bodies.  Do you really think the guy punching the clock at a big production facility is actually a skilled professional? 

Vocational classes, once again not skilled. 

I actually think it will lead to complacency if you are brought up learning on one. 

My 9 year old has her own BS and scroll saw now, I have shown her what to do and not do.  I remind her about it, that's all I can do. 

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

If you want to take it that way, go ahead.  Like I said, not very well regarded by production shops, but put there pretty much by force. 

Just about every safety innovation in mechanical production environments has had to be forced in over management objections.

For example in the mining industry currently the accidental death rate is 1 in 100,000. One hundred years ago it was 300 times higher. And even today we have problems with companies trying to skirt safety rules. There was a tragic accident in 2010 that killed 28 miners; $209 million in fines and some criminal convictions for intentionally trying to impede safety enforcement efforts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Big_Branch_Mine_disaster

The following outlines this history of industrial saftey:

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/history-of-workplace-safety-in-the-united-states-1880-1970/

It's interesting reading.

Force away, I will buy up all those unsafe cast iron table saws for nickles.  Settle for less, because it's safer.

 

[junk731]

My main concern with the small light weight saw would be how many firings it would take before the saw was total junk. The assembly in the bigger saws is designed to take a hit but it shows signs of heavy runout after several firings. It would be interesting if one of their many recorded misfires was enough to junk this small saw. My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

John

Do you have a source for the comment about heavy runout and many misfirings? I haven't seen that anywhere else.

[quote author=junk]
Keep reading and look for the information, I'm not going to do your research for you.

In other words, no. Thanks for playing.
[/quote]

Just one of the many threads out their if you actual can search. This one is about misfiring from an actual professional not a hobby guy. As I said do you own research or be another sheep. Can hardly wait for your next comment.
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...dge-fired-today-unknown-why&highlight=sawstop

 

[greg mann]

You just made my point in more words. 

They are put in environments where the people that use them are often referred to as warm bodies.  Do you really think the guy punching the clock at a big production facility is actually a skilled professional?

My point was that I know they are not skilled professionals, but just because they are punching a clock doesn't mean they won't become one. In the meantime they deserve protection, at the least from what they have yet to learn. I also hope you are not impying there is something demeaning about punching a clock to make a living.
Vocational classes, once again not skilled.

All the more reason to protect the learner from what he ahs yet to learn. 

I actually think it will lead to complacency if you are brought up learning on one.

I read this one a lot. There is no evidence not wearing a seatbelt makes one a more careful driver. 

My 9 year old has her own BS and scroll saw now, I have shown her what to do and not do.  I remind her about it, that's all I can do.

She is lucky to have you, and you will find ways to do more because you love her. Maybe not in the workshop but there are certainly other life lessons you will share with her.

 

[andvari]

Just one of the many threads out their if you actual can search. This one is about misfiring from an actual professional not a hobby guy. As I said do you own research or be another sheep. Can hardly wait for your next comment.
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...dge-fired-today-unknown-why&highlight=sawstop

This is a guy who has had his saw for 3 years and has used it hard every day. It's fired off ONCE.

Sorry that is not evidence of 'many misfirings'.

You are the one making the claims. You need to back them up. Telling me to do the research is a non-starter.

 

[greg mann]

Just one of the many threads out their if you actual can search. This one is about misfiring from an actual professional not a hobby guy. As I said do you own research or be another sheep. Can hardly wait for your next comment.
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...dge-fired-today-unknown-why&highlight=sawstop

This is a guy who has had his saw for 3 years and has used it hard every day. It's fired off ONCE.

Sorry that is not evidence of 'many misfirings'.

You are the one making the claims. You need to back them up. Telling me to do the research is a non-starter.

And, he was even particularly upset about it. He was primarily just curious more than anything. Seems to me he felt 'better to have it fire when not needed that to have it fire when really needed.' He also seemed very satisfied with the CS response. Seems like a real stretch to cite this thread to criticize SS.

 

[SittingElf]

Just one of the many threads out their if you actual can search. This one is about misfiring from an actual professional not a hobby guy. As I said do you own research or be another sheep. Can hardly wait for your next comment.
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...dge-fired-today-unknown-why&highlight=sawstop

This is a guy who has had his saw for 3 years and has used it hard every day. It's fired off ONCE.

Sorry that is not evidence of 'many misfirings'.

You are the one making the claims. You need to back them up. Telling me to do the research is a non-starter.

He should also notice that not a single other SS owner responding in the forum has had any issues, and beyond that, SS customer service is awesome, and though the warranty on his saw was clearly long gone, they immediately sent him a new cartridge and blade...no questions.  They always do that!  One of the reasons I am a fan.

Finding one single activation that may have been caused by some error is NOT a trend, and it would be disingenuous to allude that they are "common".

Cheers,
Frank

 

[VW mick]

Hello

Sawstop will release a new portable jobsite table saw shortly!!