Should I upgrade or eliminate my tablesaw?

[alanz]

"This is one of the most interesting discussion threads I've read and made more so by the fact that Festool doesn't offer a table saw which perhaps implies that none is needed."

Now where is the Festool lathe? 

No wait, I don't want one.  I recently aquired a Nova DVR XP, and am learning to use the tools of the flat world to prepare mixed-wood blanks for turning.

It's odd, but as a hobbyist,  I generally use my Festool tools in advance of the (choosing my words carefully, though I'l likely still regret it) 'creative' tools.... like the bandsaw, scrollsaw, lathe and table mounted router.

 

[rcher]

Recently my son and I built cabinets for his kitchen.  I used Festools, particularly the TS55 and the Kapex, extensively for this project.  However, I also used my table saw.  The combination of the two produced outstanding accuracy of cuts, which is the key to producing quality cabinets.  I could not imagine getting the same level of accuracy with the Festool TS55 alone.  We used the TS55 to break up large sheets of maple plywood and then made the final cuts on the table saw.  The table saw was also essential for getting the rip cuts right on the face frames, the crosscuts were done with my Kapex. I have done some cabinet work using the Festool saws alone, but those cabinets were without faceframes.  When using faceframes I think a table saw is essential.

I did upgrade my table saw.  I replaced a Delta Contractor's saw with a Hammer K3 sliding table saw.  Made a great deal of difference, especially for accuracy and squareness of cut and when dealing with large pieces of sheet goods. I am getting ready to build cabinets for a guest cottage and look forward to the experience of using more of my Festools and my table saw.

And I want a bandsaw . . .

 

[garnet_steen]

Recently my son and I built cabinets for his kitchen.  I used Festools, particularly the TS55 and the Kapex, extensively for this project.  However, I also used my table saw.  The combination of the two produced outstanding accuracy of cuts, which is the key to producing quality cabinets.  I could not imagine getting the same level of accuracy with the Festool TS55 alone.  We used the TS55 to break up large sheets of maple plywood and then made the final cuts on the table saw.  The table saw was also essential for getting the rip cuts right on the face frames, the crosscuts were done with my Kapex. I have done some cabinet work using the Festool saws alone, but those cabinets were without faceframes.  When using faceframes I think a table saw is essential.

Can you specify why you think the table saw was essential for making those rip cuts? Do you think that the TS55 and guides would not produce a sufficiently accurate rip cut or do you have some other reason? I wonder what kinds of operations you and others would not tackle without a table saw?

 

[nclemmons]

I agree with rcher on the face frames. 

For accurately cutting face frames - or door rail and stiles, or drawer fronts, or other pieces that are less than 8" wide, I prefer to use my table saw.  It's an Inca so not a huge space demand in the workshop.  It gives better accuracy, faster repeatability, and lets me use the Kapex for cross cuts, the MFT with saw for panels and the table saw for the ripping and sizing of components.  I still use the MFT for clamp-up and sanding, and routing tasks,  But I'm not ready to give up the tablesaw for face frames or finer furniture-quality cabinet working.

If yoiu were on-site at a job or doing only occasional ripping, you could make an MFT work with various jigs or measuring techniques.  Or you could get a portable saw for use.  But I don't think I'd personally want to get rid of a tablesaw if I already owned it.

my 2 cents

neilc

 

[garnet_steen]

I agree with rcher on the face frames.  For accurately cutting face frames - or door rail and stiles, or drawer fronts, or other pieces that are less than 8" wide, I prefer to use my table saw.

Thanks for the great reply. My situation is one where I have limited space and budget and am looking at what tools to buy as I currently do not have a table saw. I could buy a used contractor saw (for budget, space and portability reasons, I would not buy my dream SawStop right now) or invest in a few quality tools - plunge saw, router (w/table), miter saw, etc. - and work with those plus hand tools. It sounds to me like you and others agree that the primary problems in giving up a table saw are speed, repeatability and accurately ripping narrow stock. As I said earlier, it seems that cross cutting and joinery can be done equally well on other, less expensive and more portable tools.

I'm sure there are ways to use a plunge saw to rip all but the most narrow stock, leaving that to either a band saw or a table saw with the former having the advantage of being able to cut through really thick stock, such as when cutting veneer. If you had these smaller tools plus the band saw you might be able to get away without a table saw I think. Of course, that doesn't mean I'd sell or stop using one if I had one. Just a thought.

 

[clintholeman]

You know.  I've been making cabinets and furniture for quite a while and find absolutely no need for a table saw.  And I routinely cut 8 foot rail and stile pieces from stock to a tolerance of 1 mm over 8ft. 

I know lots of folks feel a need for a TS, but my shop is very small and as yet, though some of the pieces I make are pretty large 12' H X 12' W X 24" D hutches and such, I've never felt any need for a TS.

My 2 cents...

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I originally bought my TS55 thinking I would use it to break down sheetgoods and do the final cuts on the TS.  Didn't take long to realize my cuts on the TS55 were as accurate as those on the TS.  I never go to the TS because of accuracy.

However, if you are doing the same rip cut a few dozen times, the TS will take less work once you get it set up right.

 

[garnet_steen]

I originally bought my TS55 thinking I would use it to break down sheetgoods and do the final cuts on the TS.  Didn't take long to realize my cuts on the TS55 were as accurate as those on the TS.  I never go to the TS because of accuracy.

However, if you are doing the same rip cut a few dozen times, the TS will take less work once you get it set up right.

So Clint & Jesse,

As two people who seem to live without a TS (and produce lovely work - nice website Clint, why no recent blog postings?) what tools do you rely on the most? On a related note, how do you perform the most frequent functions that you used to do on a TS and to what advantages or disadvantages using alternate tools and methods (e.g. joinery, cross and rip cutting, etc.)?

 

[clintholeman]

Thank you for the compliment!

I don't use my blog too much anymore - time is a factor...

My shop is pretty much all Festool - I use my OF 1400 router a good bit, and Domino, of course, for joinery along with my AT65 and, of course, my MFT and guide rails.  I have a couple of Festool sanders, jigsaw and planner.  I also have a DeWalt 735 planner - That's about it folks.

At some point a Kapex and a wide belt sander would be nice, but no hurry.

I built a very simple jig for cutting narrow [under 6" wide] pieces like rails and stiles [1 1/2 to 2 inches]. I'll see if they still have the pix on this forum.  Fast and easy.

It all works for me - I really like the system.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I don't actually "live without" a tablesaw.  I have a nice one, a Delta Unisaw.  I just don't use it very often.  I use it when I need many copies of the same cut, just for convenience.  The dust collection on the TS (I have it connected as the first unit on a 3 HP Oneida cyclone) is disgraceful compared to Festool, so I wind up spending half an hour cleaning the saw, the floor, and myself after using it.

I do most of my joinery on the OF1400 router (dovetails, mortise and tenon, dadoes, rabbets, finger joints).  I occasionally use the Domino, but I usually prefer larger tenons (easy to get into an argument on that topic here).  Using the router with the guide rails or with a small mdf template is fast and accurate and there's no dust at the end of the day.  The sanders are awesome - they work fast and clean.

I do supplement Festool with a good bandsaw (I make my own veneer and laminations, lots of resawing), a jointer, and a planer.  I use hand tools on most projects and wouldn't think of changing that.  As much as I like Festool, a good well-tuned handplane or spokeshave is a joy like no other.

Hope this helps.

 

[rcher]

Can you specify why you think the table saw was essential for making those rip cuts? Do you think that the TS55 and guides would not produce a sufficiently accurate rip cut or do you have some other reason? I wonder what kinds of operations you and others would not tackle without a table saw?

I will try and answer your question although neilc did a good job of it.  I have found in breaking up sheets of plywood that small measurement mistakes can lead to big problems when ripping larger panels with the TS55 and guiderail.  These mistakes occur not because of the Festool system, but because of normal human error when one is using tape and pencil to do the layout.  1/16 in 2 ft. is not much.  But in 4 ft. it is 1/8".  You can avoid this by measuring several times, but I simply find it quicker and more accurate to break the panels to approximate size with the TS55 and guiderail and cut them again on the table saw to exact dimensions.

As for face frames, ripping them to accurate width on the table saw  after jointing is a breeze compared to the operations necessary to set up parallel guides etc. Using the table saw makes these cuts accurate, repeatable and fast.  I simply set the correct width on the fence and start cutting. With my Forrest blades I get a finished edge.

I stand in admiration of those who find the TS55, along with its accessories, will completely replace the table saw for these operations.  More power to them!  However, for me, and I suspect a lot of folks the simplest and most accurate way is to use both.  I will also add, that the folks who taught me cabinetmaking, who are fine furniture cabinetmakers, use both as well.  I do diverge from them in one way, however.  They insisted that we use the table saw for both rips and crosscuts on faceframes because they didn't trust their mitre saws.  I do trust my Kapex and it has never failed me.

 

[jvsteenb]

I'm somewhere in the middle I guess.....
I don't have as TS, and frankly don't have room for it in my totally stuffed 280 sq.ft. garage....
But I do have a CMS, and the TS55 insert for it. It's a nice piece of kit, and the fact that it's portable is great.
However, there are some downfalls as well.
I hate having to mount the TS55 in the CMS, it involves just too many actions. You have to dismount the riving knife, slot in some odd steel contraption to disable the plungelock, install some kind of plastic hook to keep the triggerswitch depressed, screw on the subframe that takes care of the depth adjustment, mount the saw to the baseplate, and mount the fixed rivingknife-cum-bladeguard.
Mind you: it's all very well designed and I can appreciate the thought that went into designing this, but it just takes too many separate actions. In reality, it doesn't take that long, but it FEELS long, it's not click-and-go so to speek.  And when the saw IS in the CMS, I stumble upon the fact that angling the saw is possible, but far from easy. And that's what I basically use the CMS-TS for - to produce off-square profiles on site. I wouldn't even try to do this using the guiderails, even if i owned the parallel guides, which I don't. Once dialed in, the CMS-TS performs admirably, but dialing in the right angle is somewhat error-prone and frankly just takes too d*mn long.
So I have to plan for the actions I can do with the saw on the rail or MFT, vs. the saw in the CMS. A second saw would be nice, but buying a second TS55 would more or less "nullify" the "System". I could opt for the TS75, but then again I'd rahter have the bigger saw in the CMS insert, and the smaller saw on the rail / MFT..... but the bigger saw won't fit my current insert, and although I've pleeded my arse off, the nice combination offer for the CMS-TS55 was not available as a CMS-TS75, even when I offered to purchase an additional separate TS55 - now THAT was a letdown [mad] Financial restraints can be somewhat annoying.... [sad]
All in all it's a mixed blessing. I'd like a TS, but don't have the room to spare. I'd settle for a good quality contractors saw, but I work out of a rather small trailer, not a big van, so space is limited . Then again, the fact that the CMS also takes my OF1010 in the Basis 5A plate, and that the sliding table miter fence serves both masters without complaining, makes it a very useful kit. Fitting the OF1010 is quite straightforward and doesn't feel as awkward as fitting the TS55.  I'll definitely buy the insert for my Trion as well, that should even enhance it's usefulness. The "System"definitely works for me, but in case of the CMS-TS, it's the set-up time that kills me.

Just my 2 eurocents worth of food for thought.

Regards,

Job

Regards,

Job

 

[justinmcf]

hi job, i understand you problems mate.
i already own the ts-55 and i recently bought the cms with the ts-75 because of the issues you described above.
now i dont have to change the ts-75 at all. it stays permanently in the cms insert.
i love the cms and have used it quite a lot in the last few months.
i am confident i will never need a bigger larger tablesaw for construction work.

however, i will buy the sawstop table saw sometime in the future, when i have more space and more dollars!

regards, justin.