silicone wrecking finishs

[Alan m]

hi there
i see in another thread thaat people are saying that using products with silicone in them that ruins finishs.
could ye alaborate on this please.
could people list what products that shouldnt be used near finishs(dont know if askink this is against the fog rules). 
does this include silicone (in eu we call it that , not sure across the pond) in a tube for sealing in glass , mirror , windows, bathroom fittings etc

 

[AlexThePalex]

Silicone is terrible for finishes because it has a different chemistry. Most finishes are based on water or oil products and the problem with silicone is that it won't dissolve in any of them. As a result, when paint is applied on silicone, the silicone will repel the paint. I have seen many times that when I painted something, open spots would form where the paint was repelled. Even though I had cleaned the surface thoroughly before. It happened especially often with new wood with freshly installed windows where the installers made a mess with the silicone caulk. Or where silicone spray was used on hinges.

It is also hard to get rid of, because as said, it won't dissolve in most chemicals used for cleaning like water, amonnia, terpentine and white spirit. 

 

[windmill man]

Hi Alan,

You can also find silicone in domestic aerosol polishes , some machine lubricants and lubricants for machine beds, You need to check whats in the above you use in the shop as it does cause havoc when trying to apply finishes.I find it a real problem when you are repairing furniture That has had stuff like Pledge and Mr Sheen used on it.

Have a good Easter

John

 

[MarkF]

Fisheye is the problem Silicones cause with lacquers and shellacs.  Here's a good reference:
http://www.awfi.org/AWFI/Finishing_Defects_-_Fish_Eye.html

 

[Ken Nagrod]

In the automotive refinishing industry we had a type of product generally known as fisheye killer that was added to the paint in a very small quantity that would allow the paint to flow out over the silicone contaminated areas.  It's still best to use a pure lacquer thinner (not the cheaper regenerated stuff) to try and remove all traces of silicone before attempting to finish or refinish.  Do it multiple times and change rags frequently, since they'll take in the contamination.

 

[robtonya]

I paint vehicles for Toyota, and silicone is always a major concern. Common household products can cause these defects too. We have to check the ingredients to our deodorant, and shampoo too. Dimethicone is a common ingredient in deodorant and shampoo, and is a derivative of silicone, and I can't wear these. We have a saying at work "If it ends in cone, leave it alone". There are several diferent chemicals that cause these problems, and almost all on our ban list ends in cone.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Ice cream?  [big grin]

 

[robtonya]

[big grin] I'm sure they would love it if I was eating ice-cream while I was painting! [big grin]

 

[flair woodworks]

In the automotive refinishing industry we had a type of product generally known as fisheye killer that was added to the paint in a very small quantity that would allow the paint to flow out over the silicone contaminated areas.  It's still best to use a pure lacquer thinner (not the cheaper regenerated stuff) to try and remove all traces of silicone before attempting to finish or refinish.  Do it multiple times and change rags frequently, since they'll take in the contamination.

Fun fact:  Fish eye killer is silicone!  By mixing it into the finish, the finish flows evenly.  I read this in one of Bob Flexner's articles.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

You are correct.  I always found that odd, but never asked the chemists at BASF (I sprayed Glasurit/Diamont/Limco/RM back then) why or how it worked.

 

[jmbfestool]

I try and not use silicone any more  only for bathrooms really.  

Like around wooden windows I hate silicone white always turns a horrible dirty colour and like alex mentioned if it has been done poorly and people have got it unevenly on the window when you paint the window it shows up.
I use acrylic as its has the same characteristics as caulk and silicone. I think it works really well one stone buildings best!  I scribe the windows best I can with a planer an axe and a chisel then the rest I use acrylic and once its all painted it looks like the entire window has been scribed into the stone work much nicer finish than silicone.

JMB

 

[andvari]

You are correct.  I always found that odd, but never asked the chemists at BASF (I sprayed Glasurit/Diamont/Limco/RM back then) why or how it worked.

Fish eye killers are silicone surfactants. Basically one end of the molecule is some type of silicone and the other end is water soluble. The silicone end being compatible with the fish eye will attach to it, and the other end being incompatible will stick out providing a surface that is wettable with the finish chemistry.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

You are correct.  I always found that odd, but never asked the chemists at BASF (I sprayed Glasurit/Diamont/Limco/RM back then) why or how it worked.

Fish eye killers are silicone surfactants. Basically one end of the molecule is some type of silicone and the other end is water soluble. The silicone end being compatible with the fish eye will attach to it, and the other end being incompatible will stick out providing a surface that is wettable with the finish chemistry.

Thanks for the information and chemistry lesson.  Interesting!

[welcome] to the FOG!

 

[richard.selwyn]

Just to mention - acetone is good for cleaning up silicone sealant.
I use a lubricant for my machine beds from Felder called supergleit - has no effect on finishes as far as I can tell.
Regards,
Richard

 

[mouppe]

On a side note, the classic silver colour of Mercedes Benz racers in the 1930s incorporated ground up fish scales.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

On a side note, the classic silver colour of Mercedes Benz racers in the 1930s incorporated ground up fish scales.

Now that's something I never heard before!  Wonder how the car smelled when new?

How'd you come across that bit 'o info, Richard?

 

[mouppe]

A few years ago, I made a 1/8 scale model of a 1935 Mercedes Cabriolet, and I was researching authentic paint colours. (In the end, however, I painted it blue.) It was an insanely detailed model, with thousands of parts.

In a way, it's what got me into woodwork because the first wooden piece I built was a display case for the model.

 

[richard.selwyn]

Did they reckon the fish scales would make it slip through the air better - or was it just the only way to get a fancy colour?

 

[AlexThePalex]

They use a lot of natural sources to make paints and dies. It's a very common habit and only the colour is important, no other factors. For instance, when you eat something that is coloured red, chances are very high that you're eating ground up plant lice.

 

[FulThrotl]

hi there
i see in another thread thaat people are saying that using products with silicone in them that ruins finishs.
could ye alaborate on this please.
could people list what products that shouldnt be used near finishs(dont know if askink this is against the fog rules). 
does this include silicone (in eu we call it that , not sure across the pond) in a tube for sealing in glass , mirror , windows, bathroom fittings etc

aerosols with silicone in them are the death in paint shops.

there is a product called slip ease, used in upholstery shops for getting covers
onto foam cushions. i used to work in a boat upholstery shop. the guys
from the custom paint shop next door would break out in a rash if you
walked in their shop carrying a can of it.

once the wind was blowing the wrong way, and it carried the product almost
200' to their spray booth, and destroyed a $5,000 paint job they were shooting.
and that was 1970's money... :-(

just ruined a pearl paint job that looked about a foot thick.