Since when did track saw rail clamps become the defacto MFT clamp?

[Cheese]

My main work bench has a 1-1/2" thick maple top while a small bench extender top is made from 25 mm Baltic birch. Neither top will accept standard rail clamps. To facilitate rail clamp usage, I removed the swaged metal on the end of the rail clamp leg so that the clamps are now 2 separate pieces.

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To prevent the clamp leg from falling through the hole, I use a toilet seat cone washer to retain the clamp leg.

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[Mike Goetzke]

I use these Armor clamps:

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[smorgasbord]

I know there are all sorts of work-arounds for clamping things to a MFT style top, but I'm just continually surprised that since we came from a centuries old solution that works better, people are still messing about with less efficient clamping.

From the Izzy Swan video I linked above (time-cued link here), here's a use case that at first glance seems to make sense:=pM7fcOoyKMU0v5YH&t=296

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First, he's using the Bow expanding hold-downs for reasons he explains earlier in the video. OK, cool.

Second, he's got to align those plastic guides just so, probably using a try square. Also OK.

But, then it takes him over 12 seconds to insert the rail clamp, spin it around to the desired orientation, hold it up with one hand while tightening the clamp with the other - and he cuts away before he's finished clamping. Here are some shots over those 12 seconds:

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Now, the rubber o-ring/grommet trick can help stop the clamp from falling all the way down, but I bet it's still a two-handed operation to orient, hold it up, and tighten it. At least with a screw, maybe not with the ratchet.

And then he decides to install a toggle clamp to make things faster:
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And this illustrates my point. Now, the toggle clamp isn't a wholly general purpose solution, either as it has to be adjusted if the materials are of different thicknesses.

And all of these are clamping down from the top, so the top of your workpiece isn't completely free if, say, you were sanding the top faces or routing a chamfer or any myriad number of operations.

And Swan is able to use the MFT style top here not as a workbench, but as a jigging station for his repetitive operations. That makes sense, but I suspect many here aren't in small part production mode most of the time.

A bench with at least one sliding dog seems essential to me, but even there making it out of ¾" MDF means you're replacing that top frequently, especially with round holes that will wear/become elongated from such use.

BTW, the support arms shown in the video are kind of cool - and for $350 I thought about getting one, even if only to use as a guide for a hand held drill to insure drilling at right angles. But, I do have a drill press for small to medium parts and even the arm is limited to reach.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I also two hands when using a rail clamp on the MFT. Except I use one hand above and one below the table.

I use the right hand to insert the clamp through the hole then put my left hand under the table to push the L bar up to the bottom of the table.

The sliding arm automatically falls to the top of the work and then I push the arm down a little(while still supporting the L bar under the table) to “set it” and tighten the screw. Takes about 3 seconds.

That toggle clamp he uses isn’t going to provide much pressure without twisting the black fence/bar is mounted on. That will make the fence/bar not longer straight. Might be okay if he moves the clamp screws close to the toggle clamp.

 

[Spandex]

Mino hit the nail on the head. The Festool clamps work ‘good enough’ in the MFT.

Festools engineers just made sure that when they designed the MFT, it was capable of using the existing range of clamps - I.e. the top was thin enough and the holes were large enough.

I think people might be reading too much into that deliberate compatibility and thinking that it means Festool set out to design the best table/clamp system and the best they managed was a track clamp poked through a hole.

 

[smorgasbord]

Festools engineers just made sure that when they designed the MFT, it was capable of using the existing range of clamps - I.e. the top was thin enough and the holes were large enough.

Was that intentional, or a happy accident? It would seem the MFT-HZ 80 is the clamp Festool designed for the MFT, and has the advantage of one-handed operation.

I still don't own a track saw (borrowed my neighbor's Makita for cutting down a couple of 48mm thick large-ish cherry slabs for the desk I'm building), but I have had track clamps for a couple of years now. I don't have a MFT-style top anywhere in my shop, although if I hadn't repurposed an old heavy 1.5" thick topped table that was in my old house, I'd seriously consider building a MFT-style top for assembly purposes.

At any rate, I have found the narrow and thin fixed portion of the rail clamps to be useful for some specific clamping situations where a normal clamp's head would be in the way, or just not fit at all. But, I still can't imagine using them as a primary clamp/hold-down for anything. Guess I'm in Izzy Swan's camp with regards to the MFT.

I also have a couple of Micro-Jig's dovetail track rail-style clamps. So far my experience with the Micro-Jig dovetail system is so-so. I built a vertical "deadman" by cutting a dovetail slot into the front edge of a board and then making a small stock support with pivotable front fence that has a Micro-Jig dovetail key thingie with lock knob. It works, but the problem is that the MJ dovetail thingie wedges itself into the dovetail slot (cut with MJ's bit) so I have to knock it back with my hand after loosening the knob. It's small thing, but it takes away from the pleasure of using my bench. In retrospect I probably should have just used a standard T-track with 1/4x20 bolt. Maybe I'll recut the front to do that someday.

That said, maybe someday I'll cut a grid into a large enough board to create a tablesaw jig for holding work at odd angles. But, won't do that until a project need arises.

 

[Spandex]

Festools engineers just made sure that when they designed the MFT, it was capable of using the existing range of clamps - I.e. the top was thin enough and the holes were large enough.

Was that intentional, or a happy accident? It would seem the MFT-HZ 80 is the clamp Festool designed for the MFT, and has the advantage of one-handed operation.

Well, without asking the engineers/designers we are all just speculating, but given that the only clamps that Festool made when the MFT came out were originally designed for the tracks, and given that Festool didn't create a new MFT specific clamp when the MFT was launched, it seems likely that the fact the table worked with the existing clamps was intentional. For it to be a happy accident, we would have to believe that they had given no thought to clamping at all, because there was nothing else.

That said, maybe someday I'll cut a grid into a large enough board to create a tablesaw jig for holding work at odd angles. But, won't do that until a project need arises.

Well, the MFT was always designed as a mobile solution, so it also makes sense that Festool would have seen the benefit in reusing accessories that people would already be carrying with them. But for a static shop I'm not sure anyone would claim that the rail clamps are the ideal solution. I have a couple of MFT-style tables and I do use the track clamps with them, but only because I happen to have them and they do work. Not because I believe they're the optimum solution for my needs. But then, the optimum solution means buying even more stuff, so it gets postponed a lot.

 

[onocoffee]

My main workbench has 20mm dogholes but since it's 1.5" thick, I haven't been able to use the clamps. But on my smaller, auxiliary bench that is a torsion box design, I can fit the clamps and tried it over the past couple of days. I think I agree with you [member=77266]smorgasbord[/member] - it kinda sucks. I'm doing a lot of effort to insert, orient and lock it down. I much prefer the MFT-HZ-80 clamps that I use on the main bench.

I have been spying the MFT-SP clamps. How do you guys like those?

 

[Packard]

As an aside, some otherwise unsuitable clamps can be used on an MFT-type table top by removing a cross pin and disassembling and reassembling the clamp onto the table. 

While not ideal, they can come in handy when you find you don’t have enough clamps for a glue up and where you don’t need a really strong clamping action. 

I will post a photo when I get home.

 

[Cheese]

I have been spying the MFT-SP clamps. How do you guys like those?

They work fine for general use like sanding and Dominoing.

Just be aware that the board edge will always lift unless you further secure the cam action side of the clamp to the underside of the work surface. So in that regard, they can become more troublesome than just using the standard rail clamps.

Just using the MFT-SP clamp alone allows me to slide a .025" feeler gauge underneath the material I'm working on.

Securing the clamp using the knob only, allows me to slide a .015" feeler gauge underneath.

Adding a fender washer underneath along with the knob, reduces the lift to .0015".

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[squall_line]

The Bessey Horizontal pull-down clamp WNS-Set-MF solves the issue that Cheese posted above with lifting, according to videos that I've seen demonstrating them in use.  I have not purchased a set myself, having accumulated too many of the Festool version already.

 

[cpw]

I have been spying the MFT-SP clamps. How do you guys like those?

Those are my preferred clamps for my MFT.  For dominoing, I'll even just use the stop portion a lot of the time without actually clamping.

My only complaint is the bar gets deformed by clamping, and you need to sand it down occasionally otherwise they catch.

 

[smorgasbord]

I found this "History of the MFT" thread here:https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/history-of-the-mft/msg670664/#msg670664

The earliest pictures and videos I can find do not show clamps on the top.

Which is weird given Black and Deckers Workmate had similar holes and the whole front of the table was a movable jaw so you could put the plastic dogs in the holes and clamp things, or just clamp in the MDF jaws, including pieces on edge.

This 17 year old video:

Also does not show clamping on the top, but does show rail clamps being used in the aluminum frame to clamp things vertically. Since these are aluminum extrusions, like the track saw rails, I suspect the frames were made for that purpose. But again, not the top that I've sen.

The earliest pictures show MFT-like thingies without holes being used as sacificial tops for cutting. The earliest with hole shows a fence and a miter gauge, so it appears the main use for cross-cutting panels was what they were first designed for.

The MFT-SP clamps go back to at least 2008:https://www.festoolusa.com/accessor...k-benches/all-kinds-of-clamps/488030---mft-sp

And this equivalently old page:http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/festool_mft1.htm

And there were versions of the early MFTs designed for holding Kapex's to the top, for instance, with a special clamping kit.

The above post in this thread showing how the MFT-SPs might lift stock off the table is puzzling to me. Traditional workbench dogs have their faces tilted slightly so they contact at the top before the bottom. This normally stops the clamp from lifting the workpeice, I wonder if the MFT-SPs have such angled faces or if they're just square to the table. With traditional dogs, if the workpiece isn't flat on the table then tapping the top of the dog with a hammer almost always fixes that. But I'm not sure you'd want to tap on the top of the plastic jaw of the MFT-SP clamp in a similar manner.

At any rate, I haven't seen anything to suggest that Festool designed the early versions of the MFT to work with rail clamps through the top's holes. That seems to be something people figured out later and has been widely adopted, despite the drawbacks.

 

[jeffinsgf]

The only time I've had Clamping Elements lift the stock is when I have not secured them with the knobs underneath. Even then, it only happens with overly aggressive (ham-fisted) clamping.

 

[smorgasbord]

The Bessey Horizontal pull-down clamp WNS-Set-MF solves the issue that Cheese posted above with lifting, according to videos that I've seen demonstrating them in use.  I have not purchased a set myself, having accumulated too many of the Festool version already.

Bessey's video on them:=2_wr8-JD1AVg8P0I

Probably a decent item, but it cracked me up when the workpiece suddenly became twice as thick when when wanted to rout all the way around the top edge.

Traditional dogs can be set to extend just a little bit or a lot above the table surface. These kind of clamps have a fixed height.

 

[Packard]

In the past, I have used two wedges to clamp items like that.  I might still have a pair.  I will look.  But it is so fast and easy to make them, I often toss them when I am through.  I usually have enough scrap to fashion a couple when I need them.

This guy’s setup is better than mine.  I think I will make a couple like his.  A 3 minute video.

 

[mino]

I see folks did not catch my point about 1980s .. so:

1982
Festo "FS" rail system, includes the rails, the tracksaws, the screw-style clamps (FSZ 120), the router rail use plates joined shortly afterwards

2000
Festool MFT 800 (followed by bigger MFT 1080 and MFT/3 finally in 2006) which includes dedicated rail slots for the FS rail compatible clamps and also is designed to allow the use of the same clamps in the top holes. Making the whole solution very compact and thus mobile.

Lets keep in mind that the MFT top is fragile MDF hence traditional shop table dogs *cannot* be used without damaging the table top. Unlike the rail (and other) F-style clamps which do *not* rely on the holes sides strength.

I repeat. The Rail clamps predate the MFT (which itself shipped with a rail (!)) by two decades. Pretty much everyone who was in the market for the original MFT already had one or more sets of rail clamps to go along with it. And those were also the (only) Festool clamps they would need to clamp to the sides of the table.

BTW, the screw clamps are also the lightest and most compact clamps compatible with the MFT .. just saying.

None of the "better" "special" "super" clamps folks are posting here existed/were available in 2000. And definitely not in 1982 when Festo in essence invented the rail-clamp. This whole thread should end at that.

The original FS/MFT/rail clamp system simply predates anything else discussed here, including ubiquitous CNC-precision dogs as a concept.

The last point is that the MFT was originally sold/marketed into a EUROPEAN site use - i.e. apartment/flat office use. The fact Festool managed to start a whole category of worktables which sprawled into a hugely diverse ecosystem does not change the fact that the MFT/3 is and always was a site animal. Meaning mobility rules. Including for accessories.

 

[smorgasbord]

I see folks did not catch my point about 1980s .. so:

1982
Festo "FS" rail system, includes the rails, the tracksaws, the screw-style clamps (FSZ 120), the router rail use plates joined shortly afterwards

Even today, the page for the FSZ 120 clamps:https://www.festoolusa.com/accessor...all-kinds-of-clamps/489570---fsz-120#Overview
does not show them being used through the holes in an MFT top.

Clamp to side rails, yes.
Clamp tracks to workpieces, yes.
Clamp stock to top through holes, not shown. Even today on that page.

I repeat. The Rail clamps predate the MFT (which itself shipped with a rail (!)) by two decades. Pretty much everyone who was in the market for the original MFT already had one or more sets of rail clamps to go along with it. And those were also the (only) Festool clamps they would need to clamp to the sides of the table.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the MFT was designed for those rail clamps to be used through the holes in the top. I think that was just a happy discovery as people started using the things.

I'd think there'd be some evidence on the web, or even the Web Historian, showing rail clamps being used through the early tops when those tops were introduced.

 

[mino]

..
I'd think there'd be some evidence on the web, or even the Web Historian, showing rail clamps being used through the early tops when those tops were introduced.

Sorry but you are stretching this too far. This is not a court of law where we need to provide non-tainted evidence to you.

I am not sure you realise it, but in pushing your narrative you are now openly insulting the engineers which created the "Festo/Festool system" in the first place.

You may be too young to have even lived it. 1990s. The time of the FS rails, Basis, MFT, Systainers, PlugIt, Centrotec, LR 32 and the accessories concept which were developed into a single unified "Festo/Festool system" by a single team of engineers.

What we take for granted today was THE thing then. The MFT is only one, possibly least significant of the items which were invented and developed as part of this system. The FS, the MFT, the Basis, later the CMS, the CS saws were ALL designed around the original FSZ style clamps which leveraged from the FS rails a decade prior to that.

I have mentioned this already above why there is no ad materials on how to use the MFT with rail clamps. I lived the time.
THERE WAS NO TV ADVERTISEMENT of the MFT. NO VIDEO. NO PICTURES. NO POSTERS IN SHOPS. NO ILLUSTRATED BOOKLETS. NADA.
BUT. THERE WERE QUALIFIED DEALERS. Who took care of all the information "missing".

No, there was no Internet www page for Festool except a very simple static site with no details. It was 2000. Not 2010.

----
To repeat in simple straight language:

It was obvious to anyone who was not an idiot that you use the only clamp Festool offers, THE Festool clamp with the new table that is obviously designed to use it with. Only a moron would waste expensive catalog space for showing the obvious usage when you have the budget for just 2-3 pictures to show the advanced uses on one page. Further, Festool is a German company. They do(did) no have the culture to write in a manual to not dry cats in microwaves. They just do not make manuals for nails that state to use a hammer. They just do(did) not. Deal with it. Sorry. That is life.

I could say today's young are more stupid. But that would be not only unfair but also wrong.

Reality is that documentation/videos/pictures are WAY cheaper to publish, so we take them for granted. That was not so in 2000. Far from it. You simply cannot look at anything prior to about 2010 when the broadband internet and digital photography revolutions were completed with the prism of "They did not document it, so it must not have existed!". People simply did not document their farts then. Simple as that.

/rant mode off

 

[Michael Kellough]

If all the photos from back in the day (2007) hadn’t been dumped during some sort of FOG technical transfer you could see folks using track clamps on MFT’s here.

Not that you must do so, but back then dogs for the 20mm holes even hadn’t been produced so if you wanted to secure something to the table those clamps were just about the only way.

The very first dogs made for the MFT were prototypes made from 20mm plastic tube Steve (QWAS) imported from France. I still have mine.