Some Questions for Rick Christopherson regarding the ASA 5000

[SittingElf]

OK, so I've decided that the ASA 5000 boom is in my future. I will purchase in Germany and have the military ship it with our household goods when my wife is reassigned to Georgia this summer.

Unlike you, I will add the energy and air unit to the arm and replace the receptacles with a single 220V and two 110V females. I'm expecting a total price of around $4900.

This will mitigate having to put 220V outlets all over my newly refurbed shop, which currently has NONE, and only three 110V outlets on the walls at the moment, though I WILL add a number of 110's on the walls and ceiling.  With a 16.5Ft reach, I will be able to operate the various 220V machines in my shop, one by one, which is my intention.  I WILL have a dedicated 220V outlet where my 3HP Cyclone will live, and I might put one on the wall where my Powermatic Lathe has just decided to reside. Other than that, I want to power my machines via the boom.

I have also considered attaching 6" duct to the boom arm, with a flex hose at the pivot point to allow for DC at the machines as I use them. (With reduction adapters to 5" and 4" where appropriate to the individual machines, and allowing for the smaller diameter DC hose for the CT36 to reside internally in the boom along with an air hose from my compressor.

I plan to mount to the far wall of my shop which can be seen in the pictures below. The boom will be at approximately 7' and the down pipe cut to a height to accommodate ease of use.

The big question is how to mount to the far wall to assure weight distribution and security. My thoughts are to sandwich the block wall with steel plates on both the outside and inside with bolts...allowing for load sharing over more square footage. Do you think this would work?  I obviously would have to figure out a way to make the outside plate esthetically reasonable to please the HOA that I'm in, but that would probably not be a major issue.

I would be interested in your thoughts about whether this is an effective solution, or would I need to reconsider the installation. You are the only person that I know of that has the 5000 in the USA, and I think it will work incredibly well for me as well, as long as I can mount it safely and securely.

Looking forward to your input.

Frank

The red area is where I want to install the boom. (Note: This is an old picture of my workshop. MUCH has changed and most of the machines in this pic are now sold and replaced)
[attachimg=#1]

This is a closeup of the type of wall inside the shop. As far as I know, there is no concrete fill within the blocks.
[attachimg=#2]

This is the outside wall. The overhang matches the ceiling in the shop.
[attachimg=#3]

This is a closeup of the area where I would install an outside steel plate to sandwich with an internal one. Do I need length or width for the plate?
[attachimg=#4]

Tough questions, but one way or the other, I want the 5000 in my shop! [drooling]

 

[CarolinaNomad]

I personally don't think the plates will work.  Another option would be to poke holes into the concrete blocks, fill the cavity of the blocks with concrete and rebar and place steel plate inside the cavity of the blocks on the backside of the rebar and have the bolts poke through the plate and concrete blocks.  Attach the ASA 5000 to the bolts.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

First off, I think you're trying to get too much out of the boom arm, and as a result will actually reduce its functionality. The 6" duct is definitely not something I would recommend. But you'll figure that out as you go and after you realize how large the boom arm is to begin with.

I also don't think you will be happy getting an energy box. For the limited functionality it will provide in your shop, it isn't worth having such a large thing hanging down. It is also rigid, so moving it around your taller tools will be more difficult. The installed outlets won't do you any good because they will be IEC and not NEMA configuration. If you really wanted some sort of energy box, you would be better off making one yourself that suits your needs.

If you don't already have a vac hose with the integral power cord, make sure you get one before you ship out.

========================================
Now on to your wall.

I'm a little concerned about the wall. At an absolute minimum, you will want to fill the block floor-to-ceiling and several feet wide, with rebar and concrete. This would probably mean pulling back shingles and removing some roof sheets to access the top of the wall. Yes, steel plates will distribute the load, but on an un-reinforced block wall, the fracture point will just be moved down to the bottom of the steel. That wall was made for vertical loading. It will not take hardly any horizontal loading.

What would probably be cheaper, would be to mount it to the floor. This would be a vertical steel post and a large steel base, with gussets between the two.

 

[nclemmons]

I looked at one of those when I was in a dealer in Vienna this summer.  Very cool, but large and heavy.  You might want to read Rick's install post over on TalkFestool - http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/woodworkers-cafe/4402-something-wicked-way-comes.html

1 - That boom will have a lot of lateral force and i doubt the block wall will support it.  I know talking to the dealer in Vienna, he indicated he had major engineering to support it to an outside concrete wall with significant steel in it.

2 - I'm inclined to still install 220 v outlets in the shop - they will allow you much more fluid movement through the shop when doing work - table saw, planer, etc rather than having to pull the boom arm around from machine to machine.  Just thinking about convenience.  Same with dust collection.  I have central collection with perimeter piping and it makes it so nice to cut on a table saw, bandsaw, or jump over to a thickness planer or Kapex all with just opening / closing a blast gate.

3 - Will the boom clear the garage door opener and still clear the bandsaw?  From the photo it looks like that space could be tight to fully rotate the boom around.

Good luck - cool addition if you can make it work!

neil

 

[AlexThePalex]

I really don't think you'd profit a lot from having the ASA boom arm in such a small space. In fact, I think you'd grow tired of the thing hanging in your way real quick. The boom arm is really meant to be placed in an industrial building, not a small woodworking shop in the garage. The boom arm isn't even meant for woodworkers, but for the automotive sector. You're not working on a chair or a table, but on a car, a van, or even a truck. The size of the projects is quite different. Also, notice how high the boom arm is mounted.

[attachimg=1]

The idea of using the shop wall with a couple of steel plates, I don't see that work either. It won't be able to support the weight, even with steel plates installed. These things really need a steel I-beam to be mounted on.

[attachimg=2]

 

[cje]

After this house is sold and we obtained another one, with room for a proper workshop, I plan to install two parallel rails with third rail mounted perpendicular between them. The sliding rail in the middle will bear a slider from which a vacuum hose will be lowered, and I might mount an adjustable balancer as well, to take away the weight of a tracksaw or router. This will be mounted at the ceiling, and doesn't require a tough post like a giant boom arm will.

Best, Karel

 

[RONWEN]

First off, I think you're trying to get too much out of the boom arm, and as a result will actually reduce its functionality. The 6" duct is definitely not something I would recommend. But you'll figure that out as you go and after you realize how large the boom arm is to begin with.

I also don't think you will be happy getting an energy box. For the limited functionality it will provide in your shop, it isn't worth having such a large thing hanging down. It is also rigid, so moving it around your taller tools will be more difficult. The installed outlets won't do you any good because they will be IEC and not NEMA configuration. If you really wanted some sort of energy box, you would be better off making one yourself that suits your needs.

If you don't already have a vac hose with the integral power cord, make sure you get one before you ship out.

========================================
Now on to your wall.

I'm a little concerned about the wall. At an absolute minimum, you will want to fill the block floor-to-ceiling and several feet wide, with rebar and concrete. This would probably mean pulling back shingles and removing some roof sheets to access the top of the wall. Yes, steel plates will distribute the load, but on an un-reinforced block wall, the fracture point will just be moved down to the bottom of the steel. That wall was made for vertical loading. It will not take hardly any horizontal loading.

What would probably be cheaper, would be to mount it to the floor. This would be a vertical steel post and a large steel base, with gussets between the two.

That statement can't be taken lightly & is the primary reason builders don't back-fill basement walls to grade in new construction until all rain gutters are in place.  I've seen the results of making that mistake.

When I built my house I had the mason add a product called Durawall horizontally every third course of the 10" blocks and once the basement was all layed I dropped 1" rebar down the cores as I recall about every sixth core (interlocking the blocks bottom to top) and fill those cores with concrete.  Even with that I would never expect the blocks to support much lateral load.

It may be an easier & more durable solution to anchor a steel column into the floor similar to the way free standing jib cranes are supported.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I really don't think you'd profit a lot from having the ASA boom arm in such a small space. In fact, I think you'd grow tired of the thing hanging in your way real quick. The boom arm is really meant to be placed in an industrial building, not a small woodworking shop in the garage. The boom arm isn't even meant for woodworkers, but for the automotive sector. You're not working on a chair or a table, but on a car, a van, or even a truck. The size of the projects is quite different. Also, notice how high the boom arm is mounted.

At first I was going to disagree with Alex, but after looking at your pictures again, he does have some valid points.

I disagree that the boom arm itself is not for a woodworking environment, but I do agree that the energy box is geared toward automotive, not woodworking. (Hence my previous comment about it.)

With the garage door opener, you will be extremely limited in the movement of the boom arm. You'd also want to block off the area behind the door opener, because if the boom arm swings into it, it will wipe out the door opener before you even see it coming.

As I was thinking about suggesting mounting the boom arm on the rear wall of the garage, I began to realize that you are trying to serve just a tiny corner of your shop with a 16-foot boom arm. It is way too big for the area you are trying to serve. My boom arm is serving only my assembly area, but my assembly area is the size of your entire garage, and I have no stationary tools in the assembly area. Aside from the portable MFT's, my assembly area is open floor space.

 

[SittingElf]

The garage is actually nearly 1000SF. The pictures don't really show the scope.

16.5 ft from the wall will barely reach my Hammer Jointer/Planer and Table saw.

Obviously, my initial enthusiasm has waned somewhat as a result of the posts here.  I will be rethinking, but I haven't totally abandoned the idea yet.

I'll post better pictures when I have a chance that will give a better overall look of my shop.

Thanks for all the responses so far. I am really trying to avoid ceiling drops for outlets, and don't really want to cut channels in my floor for them either. I also don't want to have to deal with extended 10 Gauge cords necessary to meet the walls.

Digging deeper [crying]

 

[GPowers]

I would think it is going to be a real hassle to connect up a machine every time you want to use it. Connecting the dust collection and the power will get old. I would prefer to have every thing connect and ready to use.

 

[Sparktrician]

I would think that it might be more advantageous to do your machine layout, then do any floor demo needed to put all power and dust extractor trunking under the slab, pour a new slab, let it cure, then epoxy-coat it before placing the machines.  That ASA 5000 boom arm is a neat tool, but as Rick has found, it's just not the best thing for a woodworking shop, especially when one has a low overhead and has to do some significant reengineering of a structural wall to install it.  That's my vicarious [2cents]. 

 

[Rick Christopherson]

That ASA 5000 boom arm is a neat tool, but as Rick has found, it's just not the best thing for a woodworking shop, ....... 

Alex said it wasn't best for a woodshop, not me. I wouldn't trade mine for anything. What I said is that it wouldn't be good for his garage shop.

 

[Slappy]

slabs are expensive to remove & pour if your doing the whole space , ceiling drops would be my choice.
but cutting channels in the existing slab is not that bad but then you're locked-in on the machine placement , what looks good at 1st might not be good later on when you get a work flow established , it's the simple little things that get over looked when doing work flow on paper & then reality sets in , what looked good on paper is now Not  good .

that's why with ceiling drops are easy to change everything else under floor is  NOT changeable at all .  

At least that's how I figure & my own experiences

Just the idea of D/C under the floor in concrete ? I can't get my head around that at all , what happens when you get a build up or plugging of chips & the ducts are concrete encased ?  [blink]
Frank : I'm Just playing Devil's advocate here , I too am adding machines to my shop & all these issues are in my thought process , as I have a cracked slab that has a heave in the middle of the room from a local tree now long dead & gone .
as far as the boom arm I don't have the height for that
I myself am thinking I'd just cut out the heave areas & re-pour those areas , I could buy 4 high end machines for the cost of removing & re-pouring the whole slab . I checked on that $$$ it would cost for a slab  [eek]

 

[Sparktrician]

That ASA 5000 boom arm is a neat tool, but as Rick has found, it's just not the best thing for a woodworking shop, ....... 

Alex said it wasn't best for a woodshop, not me. I wouldn't trade mine for anything. What I said is that it wouldn't be good for his garage shop.

I stand corrected.  I still think (using myself as an example) that it's not the best thing for a woodworking shop as designed.  Love the concept, not the execution (and all that installation entails) for my circumstances. 

 

[peter halle]

I can certainly the desire to not trench or hopefully not have ceiling drops, but when I was doing big box retail stores we did everything to get away from in slab electrical and low voltage.  I had power poles and custom plug strips made to allow for flexibility and lower costs in the future.  You might want to do a search for power poles or power channels.

Peter

 

[AlexThePalex]

That ASA 5000 boom arm is a neat tool, but as Rick has found, it's just not the best thing for a woodworking shop, .......  

Alex said it wasn't best for a woodshop, not me. I wouldn't trade mine for anything. What I said is that it wouldn't be good for his garage shop.

And I said it wasn't meant for a woodshop. Small difference. Over here this type of boom arm is typically used in the automotive industry. I'm pretty sure Festool designed it for their automotive branch. Doesn't mean you can not use it to your hearts content in other places where it comes in useful.

But you need space. Lots of it. Frank says he has the floor space, so that's no problem. The height of the shop on the other hand is lacking. You really don't want to walk into it all the time, you just want it dangling there neatly over your head, out of the way, with only the energybox in front of you.

 

 

[Tinker]

========================================
Now on to your wall.

I'm a little concerned about the wall. At an absolute minimum, you will want to fill the block floor-to-ceiling and several feet wide, with rebar and concrete. This would probably mean pulling back shingles and removing some roof sheets to access the top of the wall. Yes, steel plates will distribute the load, but on an un-reinforced block wall, the fracture point will just be moved down to the bottom of the steel. That wall was made for vertical loading. It will not take hardly any horizontal loading.

What would probably be cheaper, would be to mount it to the floor. This would be a vertical steel post and a large steel base, with gussets between the two.

A big mistook I see made very often.  People think because concrete blocks are made of cement, fine agregates and coarse agregates and are very hard to the touch, they are only made to support heavy loads of compression from above IF they are placed as designed with the webs vertical.  That is how they are constructed and how they are meant to be used.  They are not very strong against lateral pressures.  For the use they are proposed here, they need heavy reinforcement and any bolting needs to be done in a way that the pressure will be against the reinforcement. 

I have seen where block walls are reinforced and then a panel supported by running expansion bolts into the wall and only using the inside (near) web to support the bolts.  A big mistook if any significant weight is involved.  The side of the block will eventually pull away

I see all the time where people use concrete blocks as support under a car or truck.  They lay the blocks on their sides and expect to be safe. A great method to get themselves listed on the obituary page.  For such support, the block(s) should be place on a flat board with atleast the equal footprint as the block.  The block(s) should be placed on the board in same manner as the would be placed in a block wall.  Another flat board with 2x thickness on top against the metal frame of vehicle.  If the support is more than one block high, the blocks should be doubled up in a pattern opposing layers so the blocks key against each other.  In other words, the first layer should be north/south and second layer east/west.

I realize the use of blocks for supporting heavy loads and as replacement for jack horses is off topic for this conversation, but i see ssuch misuse so many times, i just feel it needs to be brought up any time it is even close to the subject matter. cement blocks can be very dangerous when use for wrong purposes and in the wrong way.
Tinker

 

[cje]

In the automotive branche one is typically working around a car when doing repair and/or body work. So, the boomarm is typically used around a relatively limited space.

In woodworking, an object is carried around the workshop, visiting different workstations like bandsaw, planer etc. So, in woodworking, the boomarm is travelling with your workpiece trough the shop. IMHO, one is better suited with a fixed ducting system serving the stationary machines, than connecting/disconnecting machine after machine while a workpiece is completed.
Just my $0.02

Best, Karel

 

[jimbo51]

If there is sufficient ceiling height, a modular wooden floor could also be an answer. Machines could be placed on a block or solid concrete islands and power and ducting could be run under the flooring. Moving machines would be difficult, but not at all impossible. Some people claim wooden floors are also more comfortable than concrete slabs also.

 

[festoolviking]

Hi

Here is my [2cents]  : You get alot of CT vacs with boom-arms for the price of the ASA5000 with accessories. More tools hooked up at the same time. [wink]

Festoolviking