Souber DBB Morticer

[rookie08]

Looks like a good product and cheaper than the Porter Cable.  However the only distributor for them in the States seems to be Pro-Lok and they have re-branded it as their own.

http://www.pro-lok.com/pc-199-10-injig-mort-mortise-lock-installation-jig.aspx

For $425 plus shipping - talk about a mark up!

It makes the Festool Plexiglas® Template Routing Aid seem an inexpensive bargain at almost 1/2 the price! 

Who would have thought I could ever use Festool and inexpensive in the same sentence!  [big grin]

Cheers

 

[jmbfestool]

Looks like a good product and cheaper than the Porter Cable.  However the only distributor for them in the States seems to be Pro-Lok and they have re-branded it as their own.

http://www.pro-lok.com/pc-199-10-injig-mort-mortise-lock-installation-jig.aspx

For $425 plus shipping - talk about a mark up!

It makes the Festool Plexiglas® Template Routing Aid seem an inexpensive bargain at almost 1/2 the price! 

Who would have thought I could ever use Festool and inexpensive in the same sentence!  [big grin]

Cheers

That is bad aint it.  It is the same tool ill ask Paul Souber about it to why his product is branded differently and alot more expensive.

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Rookie,

If you look in the picture it has different types of wood cutters also it has a different type of fitting they look hex shape as the ones I got are threaded.  If you look at the video the cutter looks like mine but its hard to tell though.  I would like to try them cutters see if they are any better.

JMB

 

[Rob-GB]

I found a UK locksmith supplier who is charging 3 times the Axminster price for the basic kit and double the Axi' price for extra cutters, they also charge more than anyone else for Southord pick sets  [scared] So I am not surprised it is sold at an inflated cost elsewhere in the world.
Needless to say I got my Souber from Axi' and have ordered my picks from another locksmith supplier.  ;D

The Souber is very well made and heavy duty in design, should be unleashing it on a bunch of doors next week, if they turn up!  [laughing]

Cheers again JMB for your insight and advice on this bit of kit.

Rob.

 

[jmbfestool]

I found a UK locksmith supplier who is charging 3 times the Axminster price for the basic kit and double the Axi' price for extra cutters, they also charge more than anyone else for Southord pick sets  [scared] So I am not surprised it is sold at an inflated cost elsewhere in the world.
Needless to say I got my Souber from Axi' and have ordered my picks from another locksmith supplier.  ;D

The Souber is very well made and heavy duty in design, should be unleashing it on a bunch of doors next week, if they turn up!  [laughing]

Cheers again JMB for your insight and advice on this bit of kit.

Rob.

No problem dude! Hope it makes you some money! It sure save me a lot of time and now knowing a battery drill can handle the job it will save even more time for just odd one or two doors.

Oh I spoke the Paul Souber and asked the question about the Pro-lock being so expensive in the States.

Here is his reply:

Hi JMB

We make the product for Pro-Lok. It's labelled up and badged as
Pro-Lok although we make it here.
The cutters shown on their website are wrong. They're showing the old
Snap-on Cutters on their website and that is wrong.
I will have to ask them to update it to show the new version
Carbide Cutters.

They have been buying the new version for about a year.
I think they sell to distributors and therefore, the price shown
is what their own distributors sell at.
I think that because both Pro-Lok and their distributors are
making a cut the price purchase price becomes quite inflated.

We can't tell them what price to sell at unfortunately.
Also, it's not helped by the fact that the product is shipped from Cheshire to
California and that's not cheap either.  

Regards

Paul

 

[jmbfestool]

I thought while im copy and pasting Pauls message he sent me ill do some more as he likes to tell me a bit of history  about the tool.

Hi JMB

Since we've been making the Morticer (for 12 years), we've made over
100 improvements to the material, design and tolerances. I think that has been reflected in both the sales and also the price.

The original inventors (3 Guys from Chubb) sold about 1500 Jigs in 15 years. Whereas, we've sold over 20,000 in the last 12 years. I always knew that we'd
have to change a lot of the details and the result has cost me a lot of money.
But, I'd like to think that people buying the latest version are impressed with what they get.

In fact, the one we sell today was modified in October last year and some customers can't stop telling us how happy they are with the improvements.

Sorry for the boring detail.........

Paul

Hi JMB

With regards the drill speeds, I think the problem is not as bad as you may think.
The reason we recommend 2-3000rpm and 800 Watt machine is for an ideal
installation. When we designed the first lot of cutters back in 1998 it was pretty clear that a good drill was vital for quick and easy installation.

The cutters back then were HSS and worked pretty well.
However, things have moved on and now there are SDS and Cordless drills
all around. The latest corded drills don't necessarily work as fast as those of 10 years ago.

However, our latest Carbide tipped drills are 40-50% faster than the old version.
We get reports of people using cordless drills and say it works OK.
My reaction to this (and I hope you agree) is everyone should try wherever possible to use the most suitable equipment for the job to make life easy.

So, I suggest the following as options in order of best options :

(1) Corded Drill with 2-3000rpm and 800 Watt
(2) SDS Drill similar spec. to (1) above using a Drill "Jacobs chuck adapter.
(3) Lower spec. drill to (1) if not availalable
(4) 18V or 24V cordless

The cutters we supply are very efficient so the options are there for people to try.
However, as you found out cutting a mortice in a minute or 2 is a real
possiblity with the right equipment. Using a lower spec. drill will slow down the fitting time and also possible put a strain on the drill motor itself.
But at the end of the day the customer decides.

Regards

Paul

--------

Hi JMB

I like the video. It shows how you can get the Jig to work using a battery drill.

Perhaps a little history lesson in the DBB development.......
The original DBB was developed by 3 guys I knew when I worked at chubb locks.
They made it using Trend HSS Router cutters.
Unfortunately, Router cutters were designed to run at 20,000 rpm,
so when they're used at 2-3000rpm, they struggle to remove wood
and the result is a lot of vibration.

I recognised this and so when we bought the product rights,
we re-designed the HSS cutters to improve the wood removal
and reduce vibration. However, I was aware that carbide was the way forward and so, after 10 years we developed the Carbide version with improved
cutting edges and improved efficiency.

That improved efficiency meant that the cutters would remove the
wood much faster, even at lower speeds. It was also noticed that
some installers with battery drills would use these new cutters and manage
to get the tool to work.

We have always recommended the use of corded drills with 2-3000rpm
and continue to do so. I did realise that if one uses an 18 or 24 Volt using the fast up and down motion then the tool will certainly work.

However, the motion is an acquired skill and takes advantage of
the 4 cutting edges on the front of the cutter and the swift up and down motion makes this work at it's maximum effect. Your video shows this very well.

Regards

Paul

 

[rookie08]

At 112 pounds, $185 here, I think Paul would sell a ton of them in the states.  You can tell just by the level of his responses Paul seems like a quality guy, making a quality product,  and really cares about his customers.

Though mortise locks I believe are used mostly in the higher end doors here in the US, I'm sure they could absolutely dominate any market Porter Cable has for their $1000 version here.  I know VAT is pretty high, so if we discount that, minus the markup Axminster needs to add to cover their overhead and profit, Paul could probably still come in at less than $200 retail here, and still make quite a bit of profit.  He does not even need a distributor.  A lot of companies subcontract their order and delivery processing through a 3rd party and sell the product over the web directly to the end consumer.  Even FedEx is starting to hold inventory for customers and shipping on demand.  Ship some units to 3rd party by renting part of a container to really save almost all the shipping; 3rd party holds and distributes once Paul gets a confirmed, paid, order.

Delivery/logistics company gets their small percentage, end user pays the tax, and voila, (Bob's your Uncle , I think that's right) Paul just dominated the mortiser market in one of the world's largest economies.  I know I'd buy one, and I rarely do mortise doors!

Hey, I think I just wrote a new international expansion business plan for Paul.  [smile]

Hmmm, wonder if I could arrange for him to ship me one at cost. LOL [big grin]

Anyway, great tool.

 

[jmbfestool]

At 112 pounds, $185 here, I think Paul would sell a ton of them in the states.  You can tell just by the level of his responses Paul seems like a quality guy, making a quality product,  and really cares about his customers.

Though mortise locks I believe are used mostly in the higher end doors here in the US, I'm sure they could absolutely dominate any market Porter Cable has for their $1000 version here.  I know VAT is pretty high, so if we discount that, minus the markup Axminster needs to add to cover their overhead and profit, Paul could probably still come in at less than $200 retail here, and still make quite a bit of profit.  He does not even need a distributor.  A lot of companies subcontract their order and delivery processing through a 3rd party and sell the product over the web directly to the end consumer.  Even FedEx is starting to hold inventory for customers and shipping on demand.   Ship some units to 3rd party by renting part of a container to really save almost all the shipping; 3rd party holds and distributes once Paul gets a confirmed, paid, order.

Delivery/logistics company gets their small percentage, end user pays the tax, and voila, (Bob's your Uncle , I think that's right) Paul just dominated the mortiser market in one of the world's largest economies.  I know I'd buy one, and I rarely do mortise doors!

Hey, I think I just wrote a new international expansion business plan for Paul.  [smile]

Hmmm, wonder if I could arrange for him to ship me one at cost. LOL [big grin]

Anyway, great tool.

He is he seems a sound guy!  The first Video I posted on this Forum about the DBB I got a message from him! On here I dont know how he found me or this topic.  Maybe through youtube or google search.    Well I thought he was just some random guy joking with me and didn't think much of it until I received something in the post as a gift the next day. 

His name on FOG is SOUBER so if you want to talk to him he might be able to sort you out I dont know
here is the link to his user name on FOG http://festoolownersgroup.com/profile/?u=9820

This is the first PM Message I got from him on FOG.

Hi JMB

I was glad to see your entries about the DBB Morticer.
Obviously you're happy with your purchase.
I was impressed with your knowledge of the tool, woodworking knowledge and also your video skills.

I just felt obliged to drop you a line.
Maybe someone thinks that you work for Souber Tools.
Maybe you do secretly !!

If you have any questions on the product, I'd be pleased to answer them.
Also, I thought I should show Souber Tools gratitude by sending you a freebie
as a mark of our appreciation.

Please let me have your details and I'll pop something in the post as way
of a "thank you".

Regards

Paul Souber

 

[neth27]

Just used one today, very impressed. I have a load of locks in fire doors to fit shortly, should come in very handy  [smile]

John....

 

[Timtool]

funny this comes up today, i ordered one from axminster yesterday. I make allot of gates and usually bore the locks in the wood suppliers shop with a dedicated semi automatic chain lock mortiser, but it's poorly maintained and frustrating to use and haul the parts there.
I have 5 locks to do this week in african hardwood, ill report back how it goes!

 

[jmbfestool]

funny this comes up today, i ordered one from axminster yesterday. I make allot of gates and usually bore the locks in the wood suppliers shop with a dedicated semi automatic chain lock mortiser, but it's poorly maintained and frustrating to use and haul the parts there.
I have 5 locks to do this week in african hardwood, ill report back how it goes!

Its a brilliant bit of kit!  Just make sure you have a high speed drill to get best results and quicker boring out time.  The bits are designed really for heigh speeds but do work on lower speeds just take longer. 

I love mine so much quicker than drilling holes separately and chiseling!  The DBB is so easy to set up and quick its even quicker and worth while to get out of the van to just do one door.

JMB

 

[neth27]

I just used a cordless drill (2140 rpm),flew through it....  i don't own a mains drill  [big grin]

John

 

[Timtool]

Received mine today, and used it for two locks on a set of afrormosia hardwood gates, i think it took about 2-3 minutes/lock. But that's probably because it's extremely dense wood.
The shaft got too warm to hold with my hands after a while, all in all it's a nice piece of kit and i find it fantastic to have the ability to bore accurate locks with such a small investment.
Only "downpoint" would be that you are still left on your own to make the holes on both sides for the lock and handle, i will make a jig so i can rout those with a copy ring. No big deal really.

 

[neth27]

Received mine today, and used it for two locks on a set of afrormosia hardwood gates, i think it took about 2-3 minutes/lock. But that's probably because it's extremely dense wood.
The shaft got too warm to hold with my hands after a while, all in all it's a nice piece of kit and i find it fantastic to have the ability to bore accurate locks with such a small investment.
Only "downpoint" would be that you are still left on your own to make the holes on both sides for the lock and handle, i will make a jig so i can rout those with a copy ring. No big deal really.

Are you serious? do you want it to fit the lock for you too  [big grin] [big grin]

John..

 

[Deansocial]

If you coould get that arranged before i buy 1 neth27 i would be gratful

 

[neth27]

If you coould get that arranged before i buy 1 neth27 i would be gratful

I will pop in to my design studio and knock one up for you... With the integrated robot £347,000..
Is that okay?  [big grin]

John..

 

[neth27]

If you coould get that arranged before i buy 1 neth27 i would be gratful

I will pop in to my design studio and knock one up for you... With the integrated robot £347,000..
Is that okay?  [big grin]

John..

If it does it all for you in less than 50seconds I think it will pay for its self so yeah 347k will be fair price lol

I will send you my paypal details  [big grin]

john...

 

[Farstig]

Just happened on this thread. Goes back a while, i know. The Souber DBB jig is ever relevant though.  I was wondering if anyone could help with a couple of questions;

I've gathered that over time Souber have, and perhaps still are, making incremental improvements to the jig. When ordering it, how would I know whether the vendor is selling me one of the older editions, or the latest and greatest?

There is also a model of the DBB morticer that is not self centring, but can do offset mortices. I find it as "JIG2" or "DBB/2", but unfortunately I can only find it at very silly prices and those same few vendors sell the self centring one at silly prices as well. Like twice the price at most others. Leading me to think they are just too greedy for to deserve my business. But I cannot find anyone among "most others" that have JIG2 at a reasonable price. Does anyone know?
(For comparison, I suppose, one could buy JIG1 + the housing unit from JIG2, currently available for less than £150, and have both. Looks like the guide rails are identical. So I see no reason to pay any much more than what most sell JIG1 for; £118.)

/Stig

 

[jmbfestool]

The owner of DBB is actually a member on fog.  A very nice guy he  found me on FOG and contacted me a while ago saying thank you for some demo videos I made on YouTube. 

Ill find his user name maybe he might be able to help you out.

 

[jmbfestool]

Souber  http://festoolownersgroup.com/profile/?u=9820