Spare parts / CMS discussion

[DeformedTree]

Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

I don’t think Festool would ignore that there’s a lot of CMS modules in use out there, those who have a module for their existing TS 55 I’m sure would be happy that their new one would be usable, not rendering the CMS useless. CMS are not forbidden to use, they were stopped by new regulations. Used correctly, they are as safe as a new portable table saw, if hooked correctly to a NVR switch provided with the CMS tables. Keeping compatibility is important to Festool. It even shows on the new drill. I’m sure this falls very good in favour of pro customer brand loyalty.

Well, maybe I'm coming from a north American stand point where festool works hard not to be a system.  On CMS they only ever sold the router setup, nothing else, which made it odd, a modular system with just one module.  Or of course changing the units on tools, etc.  Nothing about them comes across as caring at all about being a system.  I'm sure others could come up with many things they broke/changed along the way. ...Oh yeah, systainer 3....

I wasn't implying you can't use CMS, they just aren't making any sales from folks.  I don't see them holding back a design change to the core product because of CMSs out there being a thing.  I'm sure they will happily sell you a TKS80 or CS50  [tongue]

 

[FestitaMakool]

Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

I don’t think Festool would ignore that there’s a lot of CMS modules in use out there, those who have a module for their existing TS 55 I’m sure would be happy that their new one would be usable, not rendering the CMS useless. CMS are not forbidden to use, they were stopped by new regulations. Used correctly, they are as safe as a new portable table saw, if hooked correctly to a NVR switch provided with the CMS tables. Keeping compatibility is important to Festool. It even shows on the new drill. I’m sure this falls very good in favour of pro customer brand loyalty.

Well, maybe I'm coming from a north American stand point where festool works hard not to be a system.  On CMS they only ever sold the router setup, nothing else, which made it odd, a modular system with just one module.  Or of course changing the units on tools, etc.  Nothing about them comes across as caring at all about being a system.  I'm sure others could come up with many things they broke/changed along the way. ...Oh yeah, systainer 3....

I wasn't implying you can't use CMS, they just aren't making any sales from folks.  I don't see them holding back a design change to the core product because of CMSs out there being a thing.  I'm sure they will happily sell you a TKS80 or CS50  [tongue]

Yup, and I did.. buy the CS 50 as a table saw instead..  [smile] I almost bought the CMS GE kit, the one that included the TS module and a TS 55.. then suddenly it went obsolete.
I think it sold reasonably well in Europe, Axminster had stock, so did the Norwegian importer, and they don’t stock Festool they don’t sell. Axminster usually only stock relatively fast moving items as far as I have seen too. The former ATB saw had its own module, that even had the push pull function built into the module. Then came the CS 50.. it’s based around most of the same frame as the GE table, a fixed ATB 55 with its rare module (It can be found here and on e-bay Germany, Denmark and in Sweden from time to time)
From your perspective, I see the oddity of the CMS system as it only included the router module. And considering the number of TS saws in the US, I can only think of restrictions that hindered the TS 55 module to reach you. I’m only reasoning this off course. Someone might know why.
The kit with the TS 55, table and module wasn’t cheap, but still it offered a plunge saw with the added bonus of a reasonably good table saw in a very compact and portable unit. Buying separate quality items soon reach over the kit price. And no one really offered a sliding table to go with their table saws, not really a extension table either.

 

[DeformedTree]

Oh, I liked the CMS idea, I was looking at buying one for a while, and sneaking in the other bits. But then when they discontinued it, that killed that plan.  I've also looked at trying to get just the german router module, and getting a german 230V OF2200 to use for a setup, but when CMS was discontinued, the parts disappeared in a massive way.  It's still on sale in the US, but clearly not long for the world.

I think the TS module was to happen, it just never came.  Others would be hard as the base tool isn't sold here, like the belt sander.

I'd still like to see festool come out with a router table based of the CS70/TKS80 chassis, basically have an OF2200 bits integrated into it, so folks can have a nice, portable, modular router table setup.

 

[Coen]

when CMS was discontinued, the parts disappeared in a massive way

CMS still falls under the 10 year parts availability warranty of Festool. You can still order all the individual parts and build one yourself.

That is exactly what I did to get my CMS-PS module.

 

[DeformedTree]

when CMS was discontinued, the parts disappeared in a massive way

CMS still falls under the 10 year parts availability warranty of Festool. You can still order all the individual parts and build one yourself.

That is exactly what I did to get my CMS-PS module.

So I was talking about what folks would by from stores, not parts.  Still,  ability to buy spares doesn't matter much at all. It's no longer a concurrent product, no further development, no longer on store shelves, etc.  So going to those means doesn't much matter.  That said, if I find one used/cheap, I may still buy one.

If festool would just have a web interface where one could just select parts, and place an order, that would help massively in doing something like you mention, but it's also probably why they don't do that.  Trying to obtain parts over a phone via a person, is a form of hell I want no part of.

But if I find a festool product for the right price, and no real expected support issues, then yeah, I don't have much concern over buying something.  I really don't get why folks think a supposed 10year spare part availability means anything when it comes to actually buying something.  It's not a law in the US, so it's meaningless, but also you are saying you are good with buying something where the clock is ticking all ready, verses not even started.  With CMS gone, it becomes a main question of what replaces it or anything.  Hunt around to try and find the parts for it, just to have Festool launch a new system shortly after.

I know some folks have no issue buying stuff that is no more, but a lot of folks do.  If I can't go out the next day and buy the same thing again in a store, I'm not interested.  If I own something that is discontinued, I will keep it and just hope it keeps going and try figuring out the next move, it's not like I sell stuff and buy the new model like some folks will do on consumer products.

 

[Coen]

[...]

No, if you dont own any CMS parts, don't buy into it.

However, if you already do, and you are missing one module... it's a way to get a new one. I had my CMS-OF for years, was looking to buy a CMS-PS... and then they all suddenly disappeared. Some time later I went to my dealer, handed him the part list, and pronto; a few days later a box of parts arrived and I have a fully functional CMS-PS.

 

[Cheese]

I really don't get why folks think a supposed 10year spare part availability means anything when it comes to actually buying something.  It's not a law in the US, so it's meaningless, but also you are saying you are good with buying something where the clock is ticking all ready, verses not even started. 

In this particular case another point to consider is, say a guy picks up a CMS in the states within the next 6-12 months. Does that 10 year parts availability start when the last CMS is sold in the US or did the clock already start 2-3 years ago when the CMS was dropped in Europe?

I'd put my money on the later because I just can't envision Festool USA telling Festool Germany how to run the business. Kind of like the tail wagging the dog. [smile]

 

[Coen]

I really don't get why folks think a supposed 10year spare part availability means anything when it comes to actually buying something.  It's not a law in the US, so it's meaningless, but also you are saying you are good with buying something where the clock is ticking all ready, verses not even started. 

In this particular case another point to consider is, say a guy picks up a CMS in the states within the next 6-12 months. Does that 10 year parts availability start when the last CMS is sold in the US or did the clock already start 2-3 years ago when the CMS was dropped in Europe?

I'd put my money on the later because I just can't envision Festool USA telling Festool Germany how to run the business. Kind of like the tail wagging the dog. [smile]

Festool USA clearly says "we guarantee the availability of every spare part for at least ten years after discontinuation of production."

So I'd say for the US that is 10 years after the last year it was listed in the catalog.

 

[DeformedTree]

Right, it will be Europe timer.  Since as I mentioned, counter to so many folks belief here, there are no legal requirements for parts support in the US.  Companies do it out of kind, or other practical reasons.  But festool could discontinue a product and discontinue all parts for it at the same time in the US if they want.  This gets to a core part of all the "right to repair" stuff in the US.

If something is still sold in the EU, then there probably is little concern over getting parts even on something no longer sold here. I doubt festool would anger folks too much without good reason.

Some of it gets to things like the claim of "festool will metric your tool", which was never really explained how to make that happen.  When people started trying to find the parts to do it and I think a couple dealers even made listings for the parts, festool started saying tools like the routers can't be changed because they are now different with no explanation.  It very well is a case that they just don't want to bother stocking the parts.  I wouldn't be surprised if one were to try and buy the parts based on Ekat, they send you inch parts. This is part of why I wouldn't want to do it by phone or 3rd party. I would want to do it where I'm selecting the part I want, avoid the chance of them claiming a mess up.

Anyways....  New TS 55K,  not much changes.  Wait till the next generation for any big change.  Looks like they did this just for common blade.

 

[DeformedTree]

Festool USA clearly says "we guarantee the availability of every spare part for at least ten years after discontinuation of production."

So I'd say for the US that is 10 years after the last year it was listed in the catalog.

They can say it, and they very well may mean it. But there is nothing legally binding them.  Generally if they (any company with such a claim) get in a bind (they just have no more parts and it makes no sense to go make a batch, or they can't), companies with such promises will offer discount on a new tool and other things to try and make it right right, or they will point you to fine print.

The odds of someone coming looking for a part after 9 years is pretty low, and often business might have stuff on shelf they are more than happy to clear out. 

Other companies have the issues they won't sell a person a part no matter what, you have to take it to some authorized repair outfit, and even then, they might not be able to get you the part. 

Massive warranties are a big thing here, as people decided 15 year warranty and such must mean a product is great.  Same people get confused as to why high quality goods often have short warranties.  In the end, a warranty is a sales gimmick based on statistics and NRE/ROI/Profit margin.  Slap a huge warranty on junk, know that many will make it or never have a claim, those who do file will be worth it verses the amount of sales made, and the savings in not bothering to design it right in the first place.

Festool has been in the US 20 years, I doubt many folks have ever had the chance to test out the parts window near the limit.  I doubt there are many tools that have been discontinued in the US over 10 years ago yet (and sold in big numbers).

Again, not saying Festool will fail to honor, but I would be zero expectation in it coming thru at the extreme limit.

 

[Coen]

Right, it will be Europe timer.

Huh, where did you get that? Listed in the US catalog = 10 years parts available in the US.

  Since as I mentioned, counter to so many folks belief here, there are no legal requirements for parts support in the US.

You bought the tool under the conditions of the parts guarantee. But there is one escape... I'll get to that later.

Companies do it out of kind, or other practical reasons.  But festool could discontinue a product and discontinue all parts for it at the same time in the US if they want.  This gets to a core part of all the "right to repair" stuff in the US.

Sure, and then when someone wants a part... they have to;
"In the rare event that we don’t have the part in stock, you receive a new machine free of charge from us. "
But in the case of the CMS... the question is what machine would that be...

If something is still sold in the EU, then there probably is little concern over getting parts even on something no longer sold here. I doubt festool would anger folks too much without good reason.

I've worked at a Festool dealership in the past and I've sold quite a few parts for tools predating the online drawings... where there was only a scanned PDF available.

Some of it gets to things like the claim of "festool will metric your tool", which was never really explained how to make that happen.  When people started trying to find the parts to do it and I think a couple dealers even made listings for the parts, festool started saying tools like the routers can't be changed because they are now different with no explanation.  It very well is a case that they just don't want to bother stocking the parts.  I wouldn't be surprised if one were to try and buy the parts based on Ekat, they send you inch parts. This is part of why I wouldn't want to do it by phone or 3rd party. I would want to do it where I'm selecting the part I want, avoid the chance of them claiming a mess up.

No, you get what you order. Do you have an example? I would say they have different part numbers for specific funny unit parts. Starting with 666 for example. Just kidding. The only thing 666 is the recommended ex-VAT price of the HK 85 EB-Plus-FS in €'s in 2019 in NL

Anyways....  New TS 55K,  not much changes.  Wait till the next generation for any big change.  Looks like they did this just for common blade.

What common blade? I see new blades. Or you mean that other brands moved to thinner blades earlier?

Festool USA clearly says "we guarantee the availability of every spare part for at least ten years after discontinuation of production."

So I'd say for the US that is 10 years after the last year it was listed in the catalog.

They can say it, and they very well may mean it. But there is nothing legally binding them.  Generally if they (any company with such a claim) get in a bind (they just have no more parts and it makes no sense to go make a batch, or they can't), companies with such promises will offer discount on a new tool and other things to try and make it right right, or they will point you to fine print.

Free new tool, in case of Festool. But with CMS... what new free tool?

The odds of someone coming looking for a part after 9 years is pretty low, and often business might have stuff on shelf they are more than happy to clear out. 

Well, as I said earlier: I worked at a Festool dealership and with these odds I should participate in the lottery...
No, we didn't stock parts of 10 year old machines, we ordered them at Festool and they promptly shipped them out, bagged and tagged.

Other companies have the issues they won't sell a person a part no matter what, you have to take it to some authorized repair outfit, and even then, they might not be able to get you the part. 

Yes, so? Avoiding that is one of the reasons to buy Festool.

Again, not saying Festool will fail to honor, but I would be zero expectation in it coming thru at the extreme limit.

At that dealership we even sold parts for machines that were discontinued 15 years before...

 

[DeformedTree]

I you are missing the core point that no company is required to stock, sell, etc parts for stuff they buy here.  This is not Europe.  Companies make such claims as festool regularly, and then don't follow up on them, or there is fine print someplace.  Thus no one here puts any faith what so ever in claims like "10 years parts support".  This isn't saying Festool USA won't follow thru, just that no one is going to rely on it happening.  I wouldn't for a moment think that how Festool works in Europe would be the same here in the US. "10 years part support" is just something to roll eyes at and ignore.

On the Ekat stuff, I would expect it to be like buying parts from anyplace else. You know the PN, your order PN, a different PN shows up and you are told that is the replacement PN, it's the interchangeable part, etc. Always getting what you ordered would be nice, but given that generally doesn't happen in other situations, I wouldn't expect it different with Festool.  If the current tools have an Inch marking, it replaced an Metric marking, but interchanges, I wouldn't put it past them at all to send an inch scale when you order a metric scale because they inch scale supersedes the metric scale. I'm pretty sure some folks here have experienced exactly that when trying to order the metric parts to "fix" their tools. They ordered the metric part, got the inch part.

It's great that how Festool worked where you worked for them worked that way. I hope it to be similar here too, but life experience in this country says it won't be.  And still just doesn't change the matter that buying outgoing stuff just isn't something many folks want to do. Would anyone want to go buy the current TS or TSC now, knowing a new model is coming, not likely.

I'm sure you did sell parts that were well beyond 10 years.  If the parts are there, you sell them. Festool (like any company) is going to sell the parts they have till they run out.  No different than anything else. Look at folks restoring cars, NOS "New old Stock" parts are still out there for stuff 50 years old. It's not that it was any grand plan, just sometimes someone finds themselves with a crate of distributor caps to a 58 Studebaker that never sold.

On the blade I'm refer to the blades on the TS and HK saws now being the same (the table Cheese showed above). Changing to the thin blade is the only change to the TS55, but keeps it common with all the other "55"'s

anyway, this is getting off topic.

 

[Ron B]

Just to keep you off topic you were dead on when you stated

"just sometimes someone finds themselves with a crate of distributor caps to a 58 Studebaker that never sold."

In December 1963, when Studebaker quit production in the US (still continued in Canada till 1966) a company purchased their old factory and all of their old inventory.  Then they started selling NOS parts out of the factory building to keep the old Studebakers on the road.  Of the defunct car companies, Studebaker parts were at one time one of the cheapest and easiest to get.  I remember fenders for $7.50.

Now you are really off topic.
 

 

[Cheese]

Just to keep you off topic you were dead on when you stated

"just sometimes someone finds themselves with a crate of distributor caps to a 58 Studebaker that never sold."

In December 1963, when Studebaker quit production in the US (still continued in Canada till 1966) a company purchased their old factory and all of their old inventory.  Then they started selling NOS parts out of the factory building to keep the old Studebakers on the road.  Of the defunct car companies, Studebaker parts were at one time one of the cheapest and easiest to get.  I remember fenders for $7.50.

Now you are really off topic.

So if this is off topic...I love it...keep it coming.  [smile]

 

[mino]

But in the case of the CMS... the question is what machine would that be...

A full refund would be a legal way in such case.

But all this is pure FUD.

The CMS is all-mechanical (except the switch) and there is no problem for Festool to put a few slabs in a CNC or a press and get whatever parts they want produced to back-stock.

Parts for the Basis system - predecessor of the CMS by a decade+ are still available. Remember, these are metal components, no plastics/electronics except the switch so shelf life is literally unlimited and even re-stocking production is a non-issue. Also storage is cheap as you do not need a heated warehouse ... With motor/engine units or special plastics for tools is is much more tricky and yet Festool has that 10 year commitment there.

Heck, most of the parts can be easily new-made in your local CNC shop in 50 years. Should that be needed.

 

[mino]

I you are missing the core point that no company is required to stock, sell, etc parts for stuff they buy here.

Sorry. But no sorry.

This is just your projection. Please stop spreading the FUD. Or present proof that Festool did not honor it in your case.

I am no expert in US law but am still pretty confident that shall there be a a class-action on this ever, any company would loose if it reneged on such an official promise.

Besides that - and I understand it may seem strange to you. In Europe, Germany especially, a company which would withdraw on such a public promise without going under at the same time would end up going under afterwards. No one would ever touch its products. It is that simple.

If you need clarification on the exact details of the commitment, IMO you really should catch with @FestoolUSA to clarify before making such statements.

My 2 cents.

 

[DeformedTree]

I you are missing the core point that no company is required to stock, sell, etc parts for stuff they buy here.

Sorry. But no sorry.

This is just your projection. Please stop spreading the FUD. Or present proof that Festool did not honor it in your case.

I am no expert in US law but am still pretty confident that shall there be a a class-action on this ever, any company would loose if it reneged on such an official promise.

Besides that - and I understand it may seem strange to you. In Europe, Germany especially, a company which would withdraw on such a public promise without going under at the same time would end up going under afterwards. No one would ever touch its products. It is that simple.

If you need clarification on the exact details of the commitment, IMO you really should catch with @FestoolUSA to clarify before making such statements.

My 2 cents.

Yes, part of the whole point here is the difference from the US to the EU, laws are very different when it comes to parts/warranties between the 2 places.  I wasn't looking to have this thread go off in this tangent, a different poster went down the path of leveraging Festool Parts inventories and so forth. 

People get very wary of buying into a lot of "new" stuff in this country for the very reason the company/product/parts could be gone tomorrow, or the product is a lemon and even a few years out getting it fixed and stuff becomes all but impossible.  Companies walk away, other times they try to make right by offering a discount on some other product they make and so forth. 

I am in no way saying Festool won't honor their 10 year promise. What I'm saying is no one here is going to 100% expect it to come thru if the case arrived.  Sometimes there is just no way for a company to support it even if they want too. If they can't get the parts, they can't get the parts. That can happen for any number of reasons (supplier goes out of business, tooling is lost/worn out, etc).  I had to dig on their website a long time to even find the 10 year promise.  I see there is some language about they will replace the tool if they can't get the part.  But again, how would that work, if they don't make the tool anymore, their is no way to do that, it would have to be a similar tool at best, but that may not be what a person wants.

Over time, I have noticed the European folks put a lot in the commitments on parts by companies. Which is great that it's a thing there. But in a country where there are no such laws, the culture around that is not there.  Many folks mistakenly believe companies are mandated to have parts for X years, but then they find out those are all urban legends here.

If Festool can pull it off, great.  But that isn't something that I'm (or many others) going to base buying something off. If I needed a part many years out, and Festool USA told me they just do not have them anymore and can't get them, I'm not likely to freak out and start screaming "10 years" at them.  If the situation is understandable, and they make a good effort to help, I will move on.

 

[Paul_HKI]

This hypothetical 10 year scenario with a CMS actually has nothing to do with right to repair legislation.  Don't conflate those issues.  They're very different things.

While I may be in Europe, I have no statutory legal right to that level of commitment from the manufacturer.  It's far beyond my statutory rights under German, Finnish or any other European laws.  Once a manufacturer extends to me the offer of an elevated right to XYZ as a precurser to a purchase, it's effectively a part of the offer, which I accept and this becomes binding. 

The US is no different, at all.  It's not worth the aggravation to anyone to try to shirk their way out of doing what they've told you they will do if they can't provide the parts.  It's easier, cheaper and better for both parties to just replace the tool if that happens. 

As for which tool, the equivalent or a higher specification alternative is what will be provided typically.  I can't speak for Festool regarding what the CMS alternative would be, but their commitment is at it's essence to replace the tool so while a CMS may not be available, they have plenty of options which would allow for the work of a CMS to be carried out via a set of tools from their range. 

Ideal?  No, but in all fairness, it's probably pretty unrealistic to expect a direct replacement rather than something else from their line that gets the job done, free of charge, just because a part couldn't be provided.  Let's face it, that's of more substantive value than empty lifetime warranties with all sorts of get out of jail free clauses.

 

[Coen]

There is no law requiring 10 year parts availability here. It's something Festool offers on it's own. That pretty much applies to most of their warranty...

 

[mino]

There is no law requiring 10 year parts availability here. It's something Festool offers on it's own. That pretty much applies to most of their warranty...

Precisely.
And this makes it part of the purchase contract i.e. fully enforceable via civil courts.

Same way as when you purchase a subscription with Netflix for 10 year. Them offering it will make it legally binding for them to offer the service through the period. Or compensate you respectively.

But with Festool there is the "get-out-of-jail" clause of a new tool which is what makes the offer/commitment so strong legally - for the buyer.
It ahead of time stipulates they cannot "get out of jail" by e.g. reimbursing you $50 as a "compensation for the last 2 years" like is common in the software industry and elsewhere. You really cannot have a more favorable legal situation than that as a buyer. It is even better than money-back guarantee as it is inflation-proof.

Why Festool does this and why should we trust them ?

Well. Multi-year spare parts availability was common from tool makers in the past. It was at the time individual tool models has decade+ market presence as development costs were high. Most makers abandoned it with the arrival of CAD/CAM tools and iterative improvements every second year. These cause models quantity "explosion" and make the inventory situation unmanageable or the parts become too expensive due to the exploding warehousing costs.

Festool *chose* to align their business model the "old way" as a differentiator. This is no random fluke but a whole business model built atop long-running and long-support-tail products. They cannot change that overnight even if someone decided so.

It has its disadvantages, sure. But parts availability is not one of them. To the contrary, long support tail is part of such a business model. This is why Festool can make such bold commitment. It is relatively "cheap" in their business model to hold up to such commitment as long-term parts availability is a natural part of that business model.
... so why not formalize it when you would do it anyway and make it into a strong sales pitch ?

Cheers.