Starting to feel taken advantage of.

[Jonhilgen]

I've worked with a particular Dealer/Designer as a subcontractor installer for quite some time now.  It's bread and butter work, the homes are nice, and the pay is so-so.  But it's spoon fed, and for the most part I enjoy it.

That's all started to change as of late.  Everybody is going gangbusters down here.  People are paying more, homes are getting bigger...but install budgets have decreased on the past few jobs.  Two coming up are almost 27% less than jobs I've done down the street, with comparable amounts of cabinets and trim.

He says he had to scale back the profit margin on these few jobs so he could get the sale, and these jobs were sold almost a year ago.  My response to him was "Do you want me to give you a scaled down version of my usual quality?  If we hadn't worked together for so long, I would have told him to pound sand.  As it is, I've passed on one, and I'm going to finish one that I started, with the understanding that they are going to have to work with my schedule.  I.e. Something better comes along, I'm going to give it priority.

Sorry to vent , but I needed to get this out.  I take my installs and my work seriously.  I've seen the work of another installer he's brought in, and it's garbage.  I would never leave a job looking the way his did.  Crown miters not lined up, furniture base not properly installed, etc.

Just frustrating.

Jon

 

[tjbnwi]

Him scaling back his profit margin should not affect you. Scaling back his margin means he absorbs the difference not you. Tell him to go pound sand and pay you your rate.

Tom

 

[Jonhilgen]

Agreed Tom.

I'm going to upload some pictures of the CAD elevations for one of the upcoming jobs.  The amount of detail is absurd for the budget.  Deco-furniture base (needs to be scribed, no shoe mold).  Three piece crown, and the kitchen, island, and master are INSET!  Other bathrooms are euro.

Take a look, throw out a number as to what you would charge to install.  I know, prices and wages vary by region...but give it a shot.  Then I'll post the install number he put on it.

Jon

 

[Sparktrician]

I had the experience of working for one company years ago whose VP couldn't keep good help/subs because he was always undercutting them on their pricing and demanding more and more concessions.  Seeing work done by the less-than-qualified help that would still work for the rates he would pay told me it was time to leave.  Seeing four windows on one wall in one room, none of which was plumb and none of the stools would line up with any other stool just drove me over the edge.  Him hiring "undocumented aliens" (not the term I would use in person) to do rocking jobs and leaving horrendous messes and relieving themselves (#1 and #2) in the ductwork caused me to go over the edge on the sheetrock sub's management, then turn it back on the VP.  If they want you to compromise your quality and you're desperate, take it.  Otherwise walk and don't look back. 

 

[CoStruct]

I am quite curious to hear how much.  I have a number in my head, but because I don't do any work like that, I don't want to throw a number on it but am quite curious.  I say walk.  He'll be back to you after a job or two paying you what you want after seeing the cheaper options.  Hard to do if you need the money but there is no real option here.

 

[RKA]

You're better off politely refusing the work, if you can get by without it.  They will find someone else that will do it for their price but they will learn the hard way when their customers complain about the standards of the work.  My BIL gets his bread and butter from builders in NC, but he works his butt off to break even or worse, at a loss.  He needs them to keep his crew working in between profitable jobs, without which, no crew.  They know it and take advantage of it.

 

[tjbnwi]

CoStruct, I sent you a PM.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Jon, sent you a PM also.

Tom

 

[mastercabman]

Jon
I can only guestimate since I don't know what level of customs this is and any extras
But I would put a price around $1500-$2000

I just noticed the detail about the crown and other trim so in that case it would be more but I would need to know more about those details

 

[danrush]

Jon, pm sent.

 

[TelcoRandy]

I was amazed when I went to the local "Parade of Homes" last year. $500,000 homes had the worst finishing quality and the finishing quality didn't improve until you got into the $600,000+ range.

I'd never be able to afford a $500,000 house, but if I could I certainly wouldn't buy the crap they're turning out now here in Winnipeg, MB, Canada.

 

[tjbnwi]

Jon
I can only guestimate since I don't know what level of customs this is and any extras
But I would put a price around $1500-$2000

I just noticed the detail about the crown and other trim so in that case it would be more but I would need to know more about those details

My bid would be higher than yours.

Tom

 

[firepilot]

It looks like some very high quality cabinets. With the detail I'm seeing I would charge like I did on Golf Course Club house installs. $55.00 an hour. Looks like a 4-5 day Job with all the moldings. So $1600-$2000 If a guy is building houses like that and can't afford to pay you he may not be around forever.

$400-$500 a day should be a goal.

Just my 2 cents. Been out of the game for a bit but thats where we were at.

Phil

 

[h.gil]

I was amazed when I went to the local "Parade of Homes" last year. $500,000 homes had the worst finishing quality and the finishing quality didn't improve until you got into the $600,000+ range.

I'd never be able to afford a $500,000 house, but if I could I certainly wouldn't buy the crap they're turning out now here in Winnipeg, MB, Canada.

Surrey was bad, Vancouver was so-so, Calgary is ok.

 

[mastercabman]

Jon
I can only guestimate since I don't know what level of customs this is and any extras
But I would put a price around $1500-$2000

I just noticed the detail about the crown and other trim so in that case it would be more but I would need to know more about those details

My bid would be higher than yours.

Tom

Maybe where you live the rate is higher? or maybe you see more detail work that I missed?
Again it's just a guestimate
I do charge more for custom work and extras when someone make mistakes.
Just curious how much more would you do that job for?

 

[tjbnwi]

Master, I sent you a PM.

I don't discuss pricing on a public forum, thus the PM's to members who have asked.

Tom

 

[Stephen B]

I was amazed when I went to the local "Parade of Homes" last year. $500,000 homes had the worst finishing quality and the finishing quality didn't improve until you got into the $600,000+ range.

I'd never be able to afford a $500,000 house, but if I could I certainly wouldn't buy the crap they're turning out now here in Winnipeg, MB, Canada.

Surrey was bad, Vancouver was so-so, Calgary is ok.

This is precisely why we are building our house as an owner builder. Being in the country, we have used trades persons who have to stand by their reputation. There is nowhere to hide. I laboured with the framer, plumber and plasterer. Except for the roof and electrics the rest we have or are doing ourselves. Yes we might be slower, but time gives us advantages, and we are certainly not being squeezed as a customer or trades person by a building company wanting to maximise profit over quality.

As our plasterer said, ' wow, straight walls'.

While the house does have some faults, I know what they are, and none are significant. Even our building inspector was impressed.

The main disadvantage, is after 5 years it is still not quite finished, but we are getting there. It is after all larger than most.

 

[Jonhilgen]

Master, I sent you a PM.

I don't discuss pricing on a public forum, thus the PM's to members who have asked.

Tom

Good point, and will discuss pricing via pm if asked. 

 

[ElCabong]

Although I am not in the carpentry business, just a hobbyist at most, I'd like to think I know more about people and business. Unfortunately, your work ethic and work habits (quality of work) won't allow you to scale down or reduce your level of quality and workmanship just because you are offered, or accept a lower rate. I'm of the adage of "Where ever you go, there you are". Clearly the builders know you, know your quality of work and know that you won't cut corners at whatever price. Therefore, tell them to go pound sand. It's better for your own reputation. Who knows, they may be bluffing and come back and pay your rates. At the end of the day, it is the builder who will be responsible for owning up to shoddy workmanship because they were the ones that cut costs. Just my 2 cents FWIW.

 

[Stephen B]

Although I am not in the carpentry business, just a hobbyist at most, I'd like to think I know more about people and business. Unfortunately, your work ethic and work habits (quality of work) won't allow you to scale down or reduce your level of quality and workmanship just because you are offered, or accept a lower rate. I'm of the adage of "Where ever you go, there you are". Clearly the builders know you, know your quality of work and know that you won't cut corners at whatever price. Therefore, tell them to go pound sand. It's better for your own reputation. Who knows, they may be bluffing and come back and pay your rates. At the end of the day, it is the builder who will be responsible for owning up to shoddy workmanship because they were the ones that cut costs. Just my 2 cents FWIW.

[size=11pt]
+ 1

Particularly if you have other work. As I hinted in my post above, it is also your reputation in the long run, why should your reputation suffer with a builder who is starting to cut corners.