Starting to feel taken advantage of.

Developers are lying pond scum that will tell a sub any lie they can think of to screw the sub and maintain their profit margin for themselves.
I stopped working for developers 20 years ago and wouldn't consider it. This isn't the place to discuss what happened to him.
My own personal prejudice aside. I know quite a few guys who work for developers because that's their line of work for various reasons. They all get screwed out of some percentage of what they are owed on a regular basis. I understand that working site build new construction is the main option for some people.
My business recommendation would be as follows:
- Evaluate your local scene, is he really going to be able to get someone else to do what you do? If not stick to your pricing, PERIOD, F HIM. If there are other good tradesman who can replace you, be flexible until you can develop other work and then get out.
- Have an attorney review your contract and strengthen it
- Up your pricing to cover the increased risk potential and associated costs; Corporate America does it everyday, why shouldn't you
- Require a larger up front payment, and more subsequent payments along the way; This is intended to reduce the size of the final payment and reduce risk
- Get familiar with your State's mechanic's lien rules and have a standing order with your attorney to file a lien on a day's notice. When you start the job send your attorney all the pertinent info so he/she has it available for immediate filing
- First sign of BS, first 'oh I can't write you a check this week, I'm waiting for other checks to clear', first hey I owe you $5K that you'll have to wait on but if we can settle for $3K I can pay you now; call your attorney to file the mechanics lien immediately
- He's trying to take food off your table, hammer the daylights out of him.
I am more than willing to be flexible and work with clients but not some douche bag developer trying to make his issues mine.
 
Holzhacker said:
- Get familiar with your State's mechanic's lien rules and have a standing order with your attorney to file a lien on a day's notice. When you start the job send your attorney all the pertinent info so he/she has it available for immediate filing
- First sign of BS, first 'oh I can't write you a check this week, I'm waiting for other checks to clear', first hey I owe you $5K that you'll have to wait on but if we can settle for $3K I can pay you now; call your attorney to file the mechanics lien immediately
Click to expand...

I was once advised to insert a clause in any contract that all materials acquired by the contractor for the job remain the property of the contractor, whether installed or not, until the bill for the job, materials and labor, is paid in full.  This just adds weight to the mechanic's lien. 

 
I don't deal with the contractor directly.  Rather, the designer does contractually.  He then lets me know the budget, which is supposed to be based on a mutually agreed upon template (per piece price, with extras to be charged on an hourly basis as needed during the job.  He and I don't sign a contract, which may be a touch naive, but I have never not been paid in full for a job...that may need to change.

I invoice 50% initially, with a few invoices to follow based on progress made.  So I am rarely too far in the hole, so if any funny business starts, I can walk away with little harm if needed.  Hasn't happened yet, fortunately.

Anybody have an install contract template they they would care to share?  I have a NKBA contract that I use for my jobs with builders and clients, just not one for installs.

Jon
 
Jon,

Why don't you send Dan Rush a PM.  I know that he usually does installs.

Peter
 
I know rates vary everywhere but it doesnt matter what i am doing, every job works out around $400.00 AUD a day.

I do some installing but it is not my main task so i am probably a bit slower than most who do only this type of work and quality takes time.I think this install would take me 5 - 7 days.So $2800 would be the quote/bid.

Everyones situation is different but if you can afford to walk away do so,you will be suprised how often these guys come back agreeing to your price.

Remember that anyone else taking on this work will take roughly the same time and have roughly the same costs and income requirements.If he goes with the lowest price installer they will either cut corners or have the same issue with him you are,either way he is likely to come back to you on your terms.If not you can do without him,if you do good work he needs you more than you need him.

Ask other sub contractors on these jobs if they have the same issue,it is likely you are all alone with a price reduction for your work because he thinks you will accept it.

I cant think of one of the many sub contractors i use accepting less for the same work they have always done.

Stick with your own rates,hold your ground and let the quality speak for itself,there wont be hundreds of guys who can does this cheaply and well,knocking down his door !
 
I also never discuss specific pricing in public, but I will say that labor rates in Chicago (or most urban areas) for highly qualified cabinet installers (like Jon) are much higher than what it appears his designer quoted.

I find that many builders/designers get caught up in the bidding process and forget that for most very high end jobs, cabinet installation is becoming a specialized trade. While some trim carpenters can and do install cabinets efficiently with great skill , many don't. They just don't perform the task every day..
(Just like I can install doors, but you don't want me to do a house full.  I'm just not built for that.)

Like Jon and a couple of other posters here, I'm a solo cabinet and trim installer.  I thought that I'd share some of my business strategies for our admittedly very niche market.  Take them for what they're worth, but they work for me.

1.  Annually I work for about 8-12 builders/designers.  A couple come and go, but it's a pretty steady group. (very little retail or direct homeowner work).  My favorite designer will account for approximately a third of my work this year.  A bit high for me, I'd prefer to get that down to no more than 20%.  The old too many eggs in one basket deal.  If a problem arises with one shop, my overall annual revenue won't take a devastating hit.

2.  While I do provide a price list for my designers (and teach them how to use it) I will only honor quotes generated by myself.  No exceptions.  In exchange for this ironclad rule, I turn around quotes same day, or at worst 24 hours. Because I have an extremely streamlined quote system, I can estimate even the largest whole house install in just minutes, so it's not a burden for me.

3.  No hourly work...ever!  It seems to me that anyone who is proficient at his or her trade ought to be able to estimate the time it takes to complete a given added task and provide an estimate/change order accordingly prior to commencing the extra work.  It takes away the "how can it take 5 hours to fix (fill in the blank)"question. 

I sometimes get some push back from designers on this one, so my response is " did the cabinet manufacturer build the cabinet you forgot to order without a payment or purchase order?"  Probably not.

4.  Contracts:  I do have contracts with my builders, but they're really pretty basic boiler- plate type documents.  (if I send you a bill, pay the bill and when,type stuff).I have found, however that for my business, if I need to resort to referring or relying on a contact, the cause is probably already lost.

5.  Service, service, and even more service.  I try to constantly remind myself that although I'm a pretty good installer, there are plenty of great installers out there.  So I strive to always set new, higher standards of service excellence apart from the cabinet installation itself.  (usual good business practice; answer the phone, timely quotes, misc followup,etc.  things that, fortunately for me, alot of other guys forget). 

But I also demand the same level of excellence from my designers.  I'm not interested in working for a designer that sells alot of boxes with alot of problems just for the sake selling lots of cabinets.  They must follow the program so that we can both have a chance to exceed our customers expectations.

I've rambled here a bit, but I am passionate about developing good,  equitable, and profitable installer/builder relationships.

Dan
 
I keep looking at this thread to see if there's a happy ending to Jon Hilgenberg's designer trying to undercut his price... I hope for his sake things turn out in his favor.
A lot of high paying jobs are disappearing in North America, people keep undercutting each other for work and unions have no power anymore either.  [mad]
 
Dan Rush said:
1.  Annually I work for about 8-12 builders/designers.  A couple come and go, but it's a pretty steady group. (very little retail or direct homeowner work).  My favorite designer will account for approximately a third of my work this year.  A bit high for me, I'd prefer to get that down to no more than 20%.  The old too many eggs in one basket deal.  If a problem arises with one shop, my overall annual revenue won't take a devastating hit.
Click to expand...

Great advice.
One large client is an 800 lb gorilla...'cause the Gorilla tells you what to do. They dictate terms whether you like it or not. In these cases you might as well be an employee...at least you get some benefits.

Dan Rush said:
4.  Contracts:  I do have contracts with my builders, but they're really pretty basic boiler- plate type documents.  (if I send you a bill, pay the bill and when,type stuff).I have found, however that for my business, if I need to resort to referring or relying on a contact, the cause is probably already lost.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Contracts like non disclosure agreements are more about covering your backside. They don't solve the real problem where one or both parties have lost or never had any respect for the other.

Dan Rush said:
5.  Service, service, and even more service.  I try to constantly remind myself that although I'm a pretty good installer, there are plenty of great installers out there.  So I strive to always set new, higher standards of service excellence apart from the cabinet installation itself.  (usual good business practice; answer the phone, timely quotes, misc followup,etc.  things that, fortunately for me, alot of other guys forget). 
Click to expand...

Well put! I need to remind myself sometimes daily, that this is important and to actually do it. It's simple but not easy.

Thanks Dan.
Tim
 
TelcoRandy said:
I keep looking at this thread to see if there's a happy ending to Jon Hilgenberg's designer trying to undercut his price... I hope for his sake things turn out in his favor.
A lot of high paying jobs are disappearing in North America, people keep undercutting each other for work and unions have no power anymore either.  [mad]
Click to expand...

Some great points and words of gospel from Dan.  Going to print them out.

As far as a happy ending...it's off to a good start.  Told him I couldn't do the install and suggested he get the other guy (b or c team quality).  On a job like that, things will start going sideways pretty quick.  Hopefully the designer will keep track of his hours spent managing this project, pretty sure it will be double compared to jobs I'm on.

Attached photo is of the farm sink cutout the b team did.  Keep in mind the final walkthrough with the client is a day away, countertops are set, and this is just now being addressed.  There is an utter lack of management and oversight on this job.  And I have a feeling that's because he never has to worry about a thing on jobs I install.  No punch, problems addressed immediately, and tight workmanship.  I have a few more pics of his work that I would never accept, but I don't want to sidetrack the thread :).

A big thanks to Dan for the words of wisdom.  Dude knows his stuff.

Jon

 

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Holy cow! With that craftsmanship I could see them pulling out the BIG stretch caulk!;)
 
Thanks for the advice Dan.  Great to hear thoughts on building a successful business.

Keep us updated on what happens after the walk through Jon.
 
Jon Hilgenberg said:
...

Attached photo is of the farm sink cutout the b team did.  Keep in mind the final walkthrough with the client is a day away, countertops are set, and this is just now being addressed.  

...
Click to expand...

Well, the curve is nice and clean, I'll give them that. Seriously, though, this should be the real test. Your designer's reaction to this will tell you a lot.
 
I would whoop my own butt if I did work like that. I'd have to do it over just so my OCD would allow me to sleep at night!
 
epicxt said:
Holy cow! With that craftsmanship I could see them pulling out the BIG stretch caulk!;)
Click to expand...

A gap that big might need the duct tape, at least it comes in colors now other than gray  [embarassed]
 
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