Taiga Tools, What Happened?

[FestitaMakool]

Exactly, and it’s also “normal” to start showing computer generated “images” wich do are life like.
And when quality control is done quickly, the wrong images are published. When your scroll trough a high number of files, and you don’t have impeccable structure on the files, these mistakes do happen. The thumb nail, and text for the lay out square are linked to a rail square..
Sooo, there’s a little more to tidy up.

Nothing wrong about this, and the squares could be really nice. It is probably a bag of mixed factors as you mention ChuckM. Give them some time, it’ll most likely get sorted.

 

[greg mann]

According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified.  I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times.  Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Not necessarily true the cost is ridiculous. We machine castings, probe for critical dimensions, archive the data and print it to a barcode label, all in a production environment of hundreds of thousands per year. It is cheaper to probe than to have an operator measure.

 

[Michael Kellough]

While I’m interested in this square because it can be used with Mafell/Bosch rails I’m concerned that it will have to be checked for proper alignment with the rail often since it is only secured with a pair of hand tightened screws. The TSO square has a leg up with it’s self-correcting spring latch.

Thanks for the picture! Says a lot. I hope the new multi-rail version will have the spring latch too.

 

[DeformedTree]

According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified.  I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times.  Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Not necessarily true the cost is ridiculous. We machine castings, probe for critical dimensions, archive the data and print it to a barcode label, all in a production environment of hundreds of thousands per year. It is cheaper to probe than to have an operator measure.

Yes, having a person measure is expensive. When I hear probe, I'm taking that to mean someone with a Faro or similar, which is still a person.  Large volumes, yeah, set stuff up for some inspection.  How many rail squares are made a year? 

I just think folks are over thinking how accurate their stuff for wood working needs to be. Plenty of companies making money off them selling them "CNC square....."  when the results will be no different than something far cheaper. At some point if people are needing extreme accuracy, it's time to buy a 4x8 CNC router, and even then they will only be so accurate.

A lot of issue will remain design. People need to think about their design and what are the critical features and how they can design to accommodate error.

 

[Michael Kellough]

“design to accommodate error.”

Good point!

The classic example is adding a face frame to a wanky box to make a good looking cabinet.
Harder to do with frameless cabinets.

 

[Cheese]

Thanks for the picture! Says a lot. I hope the new multi-rail version will have the spring latch too.

Unfortunately I don't think it will. It needs that square hole so that the spring clip can reach through the hole and grab the rail.

From the Bosch/Mafell description:
"Quickly and easily slide the rail square on a guide rail and pull it square with the lever. Secure the rail to the square by gently tightening the two thumbscrews."

Locking mechanism is on the bottom of the rail square which prevents snagging of cables or accidently release of the rail square.

Triple locking mechanism making sure the rail square stays firmly in place."

From the Festool/Mafell hybrid description:
"Slide the rail square on to the rail and pull square with your thumb in the circular recess. Secure the rail to the square firmly in place, by gently tightening the thumbscrews."

 

[mino]

...
I just think folks are over thinking how accurate their stuff for wood working needs to be. Plenty of companies making money off them selling them "CNC square....."  when the results will be no different than something far cheaper. At some point if people are needing extreme accuracy, it's time to buy a 4x8 CNC router, and even then they will only be so accurate.
...

I have a close friend. A good fella and a maverick in mechatronics prototyping.

When he saw me calibrating the $700 Festool saw for the $100 Festool rail and testing the squareness of a cut from a $150 rail square he was truly puzzled.

Background:
In our shared workshop there already was a $50 Makita saw and aplenty of "reasonably-straight" guiding pieces for cutting with it.

/below is a paraphrase of a real conversation/

He:
I do not understand why you are wasting your time and money with this. Wood stuff is cut close-enough and whatever material is over or under the need is filed, filled or just forced. Wood bends and shrinks, so what is the point ?

Me:
How much time do you usually spend fitting things (he does mostly stuff like barn doors, no way close to home furniture stuff) after you cut your pieces ?

He:
A couple hours. Is messy work.

Me:
Well, I like to avoid the messy part completely. That is what this accuracy is for. Cut once. And by the way, it means I can actually make good-looking furniture, not just "barn doors".. and do so at a reasonable time cost.

He:
Ehm.
---------------------------

Designing such that it is possible to address measuring errors is absolutely desirable and should be done whenever one can do. In some cases that is the only way.

The same way when making a solitary piece, cutting and drilling via transferred measures is the way to go.

But. It is even better to NOT HAVE TO include the "fix our sloppy cuts" work task at all when you are about to make 10 library cabinets.

Some people get a $10k table saw and rent shop space for it. Some get $2k tracksaw and accessories set instead. For each his own..

/if someone is an artisan making solitary unique hardwood pieces, then it is a completely different talk/

 

[ChuckM]

Quote from: DeformedTree on Yesterday at 09:04 PM
Snip.
    I just think folks are over thinking how accurate their stuff for wood working needs to be. Plenty of companies making money off them selling them "CNC square....."  when the results will be no different than something far cheaper.
-------
I don't know if the results are much better just because someone uses a square or measuring tool that has a tolerance of 0.00000000001mm, but I do know that when I use my engineer's square or BCT straight edge to check the high-end furniture pieces that I've bought in the past (from reputable furniture manufacturers), most of them aren't "dead flat or square." And I didn't know they aren't square or flat before that.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Funny, just finished a wall rack made from boards of glued pine (and meant to include some 18mm Paulownia boards in this build as well)
I THOUGHT I had several 18mm stock of boards stored. Yes, but no..
I needed real 18mm+ for spacing. So I set ahead and nearly cut all the pieces and started pinning and glueing, when I felt there’s something wrong about the thickness..
And yes, I had variations from 16,87 to 17,63 mm’s. The “true” 18mm was about 18,3mm..
So I really needed the 18+ dimensions for the “stick in shelf brackets” to make it future proof.
Finally a shelf from my stock of storage shelves from IKEA met the table saw and started a new venture, cause it was close to 18,3mm in thickness.

As stated, and in my experience, buy quality tools and make the best of it. Building with wood involves A LOT of measuring and control measuring. Still it is bespoke that matters, getting things as square as many are expecting really means handing the job over to a company that has the machinery to do it. Still when the new kitchen cabinets have been in situ for a while, it’s not square or level anymore. A small furniture, maybe, but usually not.
There’s often the level and straight edge are thrown away and a measuring device and eyesight makes better bespoke fittings. I recently trimmed my front door, a taper going from 0,3mm to 15,8mm in a 230mm stretch with my circular saw. It came out great, but it’s not a high end furniture piece.

 

[mino]

I don't know if the results are much better just because someone uses a square or measuring tool that has a tolerance of 0.00000000001mm, but I do know that when I use my engineer's square or BCT straight edge to check the high-end furniture pieces that I've bought in the past (from reputable furniture manufacturers), most of them aren't "dead flat or square." And I didn't know they aren't square or flat before that.

Absolutely agree. Wood is wood, it works itself and even if was dead square when made, will not be a year later.

For me the accuracy/squareness/etc. is purely so that I can make stuff more efficiently (time) and with more pleasure as it is a hobby. I need the pieces to fit together at glue-up and the cabinets to be the same heights when hanging/placing next to each other.
Also, when making 5 same cabinets, it really helps you can rely on the part being the same and do not have to mark "matching pairs/combinations". With a cabinet saw, this is trivial. With just a tracksaw and a rail, the PGs and the squares are it for me.

After put together and/or installed, I do not care really. It is wood and it would bother me more if it did not twist and bend a bit. I would think is it chipboard almost...  [big grin]

 

[Argy]

Just to clarify, Wim went out of business last year. In Finland when a business goes bankrupt, you have to remove by the law your business name and anything related to it like videos, post on social media, etc. We still selling his products in New Zealand until stock last. We never had any problems with their tools. Quality was great and is a shame he is not making them anymore. Last email I got from Wim was about the new hybrid rail squares to be released at some point. I guess Taiga tools will become a collectable item from now on. Cheers