taking the Domino for a spin

[Riparian]

Hello fellow Festool owners (or should that be "addicts"?)...

I am the new owner of a Domino, and have been trying to come up to speed with it. I like
what I see so far, but I have noticed that a few of my mortices seem to be a bit more loose
than I'd like. Maybe 10 per cent come out that way, so I'm assuming it's user error. Anybody
have any ideas as to what I might be doing wrong?

Another question I had is whether or not others pin (or peg) their Domino joints. It's certainly
more work, so if I'm going to go to the effort to do it, I'd like to think it's really contributing to
the strength/longevity of the joints. Your thoughts?...

-Andy

 

[grobin]

Grab the Domino by the end at the cord for plunging.  It is tempting to try to push the switch and plunge but that produces irregular results.  Checkout the alternate user instructions on the Festool site under FAQ/ 

I drawbore pin joints and don't mess with glue by and large.  It produces a stronger joint and more durable as well as faster.  See drawbore joints 2 parts.  Sounds more complicated than it is.  You can drill the tenons and the mortise if you have a drill press they can be drilled in advance.

 

[RONWEN]

 I've never tried this but it's hard for me to imagine that you can get predictable & acceptable results drawboring a floating tenon (Domino) joint.  [unsure]  This must require quite small diameter draw pins (what size?) for even the largest (10mm) tenons and then require double drawbores (each half of the joint) to be effective?  Please post some pictures and more description of this technique.  

EDIT:  I do see that Lie Nielsen offers sizes down to 3mm on their dowel plates.

 

[harry_]

 I've never tried this but it's hard for me to imagine that you can get predictable & acceptable results drawboring a floating tenon (Domino) joint.  [unsure]  This must require quite small diameter draw pins (what size?) for even the largest (10mm) tenons and then require double drawbores (each half of the joint) to be effective?  Please post some pictures and more description of this technique.  

EDIT:  I do see that Lie Nielsen offers sizes down to 3mm on their dowel plates.

I could only see it for aesthetics. Any other reason to me would simply not worth the effort when a different technique could be applied.
However from time to time, I also do things simply for the joy or practice of it.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Drawbore discussions resemble debates about religion.  Lots of people have strong feelings, but hardly anyone ever changes their mind after the argument.  History shows mixed results.  Lots of drawbored furniture is still sturdy and good looking after hundreds of years, but lots of it show elongated holes and the joints rattle about.

If the piece is something you are making for yourself and you don't need it to last for generations, then have a ball.  With or without should do fine for a few decades if the workmanship is good. 

Personally, I am skeptical about drawboring dominoes.  Putting a hole through a tenon and through the joining piece weakens the tenon and both walls of the mortice, risking a split someday.  Using a pin small enough to fit into a domino and leave some meat on either side means you are using a pretty small tenon.  I wouldn't want to trust a 3mm (1/8th inch) wood dowel to hold together a chair I sit on.  I would put in a second domino before I would drawbore, but that's just the way I roll.

BTW, back to the original question... ill fitting dominoes are often the result of bad technique.  Hold the tool with the handle on the plate and push gently from near the cord.  As with most tools, a steady rate produces the best results.  I find myself getting carried away with trying to go faster and faster.  The domino does m&t so ridiculously fast already, there is just no reason to hurry.

If the domino doesn't fit well, glue it in, saw off the part sticking out, then bore again in a different place.

Also, if you are doing lots of test fits before a glue up, e.g. putting it together dry and taking it apart.  Make a set of dry fit dominoes by sanding some down gently.  Repeated assembly/disassembly can enlarge your mortises.

 

[grobin]

I use 1/4" (6.35mm) beach or oak dowels in 8 or 10mm dominoes.  It works fine and makes a very stable joint.  I currently have a test bookcase made from cheap construction grade pine.  I used drawbore on one half and unsecured dominoes or the other.  I have it with 140lbs (63.5kg) on the top shelf.  I live at 9500' and in an area with big temperature swings and humidity between ≈6% to ≈30%; mostly between 12 and 22%.  This should put quite a strain on things as the dominoes and the beach pins that I used are a lot stronger than the pine.  I expect this to cause the pine to loosen over time.  Used on similarly strong wood like Lyptus this will not be a problem.  When I pre drill dominoes and the case pieces I can drawbore a joint in about 1/3 the time that glue and clamp takes and I don't have to worry about the glue going out of date, open time (Titebond III ≤10min if I spray the workpiece with water using a plant mister), clamping and waiting for things to dry.  Much faster than glue.  I do have to trim the dowels where they protrude but my large chisel plane does that well.  I consider the technique semi knockdown as the piece can be dissembled and just need to replace the dowel on reassembly; possibly the domino as well.  How many times I don't know, depends on the wood I expect.

 

[grobin]

I m planing to do a quick test on some scrap Lyptus tomorrow and will take detailed photos of the process.  The process is doable because of the high precision and repeatability of the Domino system which allows the use of jigs and a drill press.  I will do the demo the hard way to show all the steps.  The 8mm dominoes are 22mm by 40/50mm so there is plenty of material for the 1/4" (6.35mm) dowel.  The 10mm have even more leeway.  I haven't tried the 6mm but at 6 x 20 x 40mm they and the 5mm at 5x19x30mm it might make it necessary to use the Sipo dominoes.  That is if it will work at all.  I haven't built or designed anything, so far, that IMHO will require using 3/8 drawbore.  That's an awkward size between 9mm and 10mm and would probably mandate 10mm dominoes.

I fond that you can build self locking joint with the Domino by making a 2mm deep grove in another domino locking that domino in position and then pin the locking domino; but unless I can figure a fast easy way to do it its just a weird joint of little practical use.

 

[RONWEN]

Grobin, Do you cut your own green stock to make the dowels?  I'm very interested in the entire process.

 

[grobin]

I have done that.  However; where I live good hardwood in a green state is not easy to come by.  So I tried commercial dowels; both birch and oak work well.  There is more latitude with the green wood and it may make a better joint.  With commercial dowels an offset of 1/16 is about as much as you want to use.  A friend suggested soaking the dowel in water to make it more flexiable—I haven't tried that.  Its a really nice day here so as soon as I finish lunch I will try to do some demo photographs.

 

[RONWEN]

I guess that we're not hijacking Andy's thread because he did ask about pining the Domino joints...  [smile]

 

[MrToolJunkie]

I have used this technique and it works very well.  Using a dowel plate is a good way to get dowels in any species to add visual interest or to match your wood.  You can use dry wood with no issue -- you cut a square similar to the size hole you want, whittle the end and tap it through.  I have found white oak and red oak to work very well.  On my work bench I used glue and dowels to drawbore the joints and I I think that this is going to hold up very well. 

I do not yet have a Domino, but I am interested in seeing Grobin's tutorial on the process as this machine is on my shopping list for sure!

Thanks!

Scot

 

[Riparian]

Thanks to all of you for your replies to my original inquiries. Holding the Domino by the cord
did indeed improve the quality of the cuts I was making, but I'm still curious about one
thing. I have now used the 10mm cutter with sipo dominos and the 5mm cutter with
beech dominos. The 5mm/beech joints are so tight they require pliers to get them apart, but the
10mm/sipo joints are easy to pull apart just by hand. As far as I can tell, I'm not doing anything
different. Anyone else come across this?

-Andy

 

[peter halle]

Andy,

Tight fitting dominos are not an unusual occurrence.  YOu aren't doing anything wrong.  Many members here have a set of slightly sanded dominoes that they keep for dry fitting projects.  I pair of pliers is always nearby when I use my domino.

Peter

 

[grobin]

The Sipo dominoes are a little looser fitting than the beach.  I think that it is deliberate for outdoor work, wher more swelling is expected.  As I don't  use glue I lube my dominoes but they still require pliers to dissemble in most cases.  Depends a bit on he wood.