The BBC on Apple's Broken Promises

[andy5405]

Did anyone see the Panorama documentary on how Apple products are made in China. I wanted to mention it on the other current Apple thread but that isn't the place so I thought I'd start another discussion.

BTW click the link below the video, it seems to work better.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04vs348/panorama-apples-broken-promises

I for one am biased and have said I'll go to my grave never owning an Apple product. There are many reasons for that but I would probably be swayed if it was easier to get specialist business software that is easily available for PC's.

One of the other reasons is I've had enough of being told how cool the whole Apple thing is. That's not so bad but when I see the frenzy around product launches it reminds me of how broken our society is. I'm not a religious man but isn't there something about being wary of worshipping false idols? I'm an agnostic but I have complete respect for someone worshipping any God, but a phone?

This isn't meant to be an incendiary post or a political or religious debate, but I think it's worthy of sensible discussion. I'm not criticising the products, it's the whole Apple ethos and how some buy into it to the point of almost religious devotion, it just doesn't sit well with me.

Maybe it would work better as a discussion in a wider context without singling out Apple. However, using them as an example, when they got bad press because they had unusually high suicide rates in their Chinese factories their response was interesting. The corporate PR driven "we'll hug you so tight till it hurts" response was great. However the BBC have revealed that little has changed and the actual pragmatic approach to reduce suicides has been to install suicide nets in the massive dormitories surrounding the factories.  I'm sure there not the only ones but they are one that I know about.

 

[rljatl]

I am with you.  If you need more reasons not to like Apple, read Isaacson's biography on Jobs.

 

[JBird]

This isn't meant to be an incendiary post or a political or religious debate, but I think it's worthy of sensible discussion. I'm not criticising the products, it's the whole Apple ethos and how some buy into it to the point of almost religious devotion, it just doesn't sit well with me.

Could be saying the same thing about Festool I guess. It doesn't make any more sense to hate a product because it is popular then it does to like a product because it is popular.

I did not watch the program you link to(it is not available in the US and I am already well informed on these issues), but if you did and came away with the understanding that Apple owns factories in China then you have been misinformed. Foxconn owns the factories in question. If someone is to be held accountable for the job satisfaction of Chinese workers then hold Foxconn responsible. Or better yet hold the Chinese government responsible for the well being of their populace. In general the workers at Foxconn consider themselves to be very fortunate to work there. The pay and working conditions compare very favorably to other options that are available in the rural areas they come from.

Where was the phone you carry manufactured? How about your television set, computer et cetera?

 

[SittingElf]

I think it's important to note that Foxconn (One of the companies that produces Apple products) has over one million employees.

Apple does not hire, nor manage the employees and has been very focused on forcing Foxconn to improve their employees work environment. Further... if you have not spent time in Asia and Southeast Asia, then you are basing your statements on media reports which tend to compare living and working norms in the West with those in Asia. Very, very different.

Here's a FACT that the BBC and the Guardian won't tell you in their stories....
While there have been a spate of suicides in the last few years....the suicide rate at Foxconn, even during the suicide spate, was lower than that of China as well as that of all 50 states of the United States  [huh]

Foxconn is one of only a number of companies manufacturing for Apple. And while Foxconn certainly is their major player, Apple has contracts throughout Asia with many companies... including Samsung, Sharp, Panasonic and others.

Finally, if you are going to avoid Apple products because of Foxconn, then you also need to ban the following companies as well from your purchase decisions, because Foxconn ALSO manufactures their products:
Blackberry
Acer
Amazon Kindle
Cisco
Dell
Google
Hewlett Packard
Microsoft (Xbox)
Motorola
Nintendo(WiiU)
Nokia
Sony (Playstation)
Toshiba
Vizio
And others....... (Source Wikipedia)

You couldn't pay me to go back to Windoze.  Apple designs amazing products...that just work! [tongue]

Cheers,

Frank

 

[KGB pilot125]

This issue I have with apple is that none of it is as leading edge as you are led to believe.  Everything their new phone does has already been out for few years.

After the 5 came out a bunch of friends and even my GF got them, they are all on droids now except the GF after realizing they are super fragile and not as good as other stuff on the market for half the price.

If I ever owned a company I know one thing is for sure I would want their marketing dept on whatever I was selling!

 

[SittingElf]

This issue I have with apple is that none of it is as leading edge as you are led to believe.  Everything their new phone does has already been out for few years.

You might consider though that Apple effectively "invented" the smart phone.  You know... "A phone, an iPod, and an Internet connection device" (From Jobs' intro of the iPhone). The iPad has spawned a huge market that all the companies earlier pooh-poohed as something that would never take hold. HAH!  [blink]

Sure, other companies have taken the design and developed their own take on it. Much like the Japanese, when finally converting to western style toilets, took a look at the base designs and said "we can do better", and now you can buy a toilet with heated seats, backside washing, and an air blower....some even vibra-massage you while you "sit"! [big grin]

Cheers,

Frank

 

[andy5405]

This isn't meant to be an incendiary post or a political or religious debate, but I think it's worthy of sensible discussion. I'm not criticising the products, it's the whole Apple ethos and how some buy into it to the point of almost religious devotion, it just doesn't sit well with me.

Could be saying the same thing about Festool I guess. It doesn't make any more sense to hate a product because it is popular then it does to like a product because it is popular.

I did not watch the program you link to(it is not available in the US and I am already well informed on these issues), but if you did and came away with the understanding that Apple owns factories in China then you have been misinformed. Foxconn owns the factories in question. If someone is to be held accountable for the job satisfaction of Chinese workers then hold Foxconn responsible. Or better yet hold the Chinese government responsible for the well being of their populace. In general the workers at Foxconn consider themselves to be very fortunate to work there. The pay and working conditions compare very favorably to other options that are available in the rural areas they come from.

Where was the phone you carry manufactured? How about your television set, computer et cetera?

I don't hate the product at all and would use it if I saw a cost benefit to me.

I'm sure that many of the Chinese workers are happy to be employed in the factories out there and if they are to achieve a reasonable level of social mobility then we can't necessarily expect them to have Western levels of workplace benefits. It could even be argued that we would hamper their chances of increased opportunities by imposing too much of our Western ideals on cultures we don't fully understand as we would make their employers uncompetitive. I had this very discussion with a historian who promptly pointed out that many used this argument to justify the slave trade.

My concern here is that we are talking about the richest company in the world, the richest company of all time. It's churlish to suggest that Apple have no influence over what their suppliers do. They would all dance over hot coals if Apple asked for it and Apple have the means to create better working conditions. They are not only enormous by market capitalisation, they also have massive cash reserves. They are in a unique position to make a bold statement and yet they still choose exploitation covered up by very clever spin doctors. It's not the fact they are doing it that bothers me, the whole world's at it, but at least they just keep embarrassingly quiet about it and don't try and raise the status of their CEO to a deity when they are actually a slave trader.   

 

[andy5405]

This issue I have with apple is that none of it is as leading edge as you are led to believe.  Everything their new phone does has already been out for few years.

You might consider though that Apple effectively "invented" the smart phone.  You know... "A phone, an iPod, and an Internet connection device" (From Jobs' intro of the iPhone). The iPad has spawned a huge market that all the companies earlier pooh-poohed as something that would never take hold. HAH!  [blink]

Sure, other companies have taken the design and developed their own take on it. Much like the Japanese, when finally converting to western style toilets, took a look at the base designs and said "we can do better", and now you can buy a toilet with heated seats, backside washing, and an air blower....some even vibra-massage you while you "sit"! [big grin]

Cheers,

Frank

I agree with you to a point but to even say Apple "effectively" invented the smartphone is misleading IMO. They definitely came out with the first smartphone that was actually usable and definitely deserve the credit for that. They are also probably the best company I know of at taking existing ideas and making them better. I don't think anyone would doubt that.

I would say that if you want to give them credit for creating markets then it does hold much more water with tablets and mp3 players. However that wasn't really the debate I wanted to have, I don't doubt the products. It's Apple's ethos that I wanted to discuss and creating cool gadgets doesn't justify what I consider to be unethical business methods. I guess it's about not pretending to be a saint when you're a sinner. People always get rumbled in the end.

 

[sae]

The criticism falls broadly on Apple because (a) they trumpet ethics and commitment to environmentalism more than any other company in the limelight, (b) they have industry leading profit margins that would allow them to pick just about any supplier they want (or even build their own factory in a short period of time), and (c) they said they made a commitment to pushing vendors and nothing has happened.

Also, it isn't just Foxconn, Apple have switched to other suppliers (they mention Pegatron in the video) due to the public outcry, but the same standards are violated.

Oh and I don't think your video works on this side of the pond. Here's what Apple thinks about the video though, with a brief excerpt:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/11303052/Apple-working-conditions-Tim-Cook.html

 

[tdragomir]

I think it's important to note that Foxconn (One of the companies that produces Apple products) has over one million employees.

Apple does not hire, nor manage the employees and has been very focused on forcing Foxconn to improve their employees work environment. Further... if you have not spent time in Asia and Southeast Asia, then you are basing your statements on media reports which tend to compare living and working norms in the West with those in Asia. Very, very different.

Here's a FACT that the BBC and the Guardian won't tell you in their stories....
While there have been a spate of suicides in the last few years....the suicide rate at Foxconn, even during the suicide spate, was lower than that of China as well as that of all 50 states of the United States  [huh]

Foxconn is one of only a number of companies manufacturing for Apple. And while Foxconn certainly is their major player, Apple has contracts throughout Asia with many companies... including Samsung, Sharp, Panasonic and others.

Finally, if you are going to avoid Apple products because of Foxconn, then you also need to ban the following companies as well from your purchase decisions, because Foxconn ALSO manufactures their products:
Blackberry
Acer
Amazon Kindle
Cisco
Dell
Google
Hewlett Packard
Microsoft (Xbox)
Motorola
Nintendo(WiiU)
Nokia
Sony (Playstation)
Toshiba
Vizio
And others....... (Source Wikipedia)

You couldn't pay me to go back to Windoze.  Apple designs amazing products...that just work! [tongue]

Cheers,

Frank

Thanks for saying that for me Frank.

 

[andy5405]

Here's a FACT that the BBC and the Guardian won't tell you in their stories....
While there have been a spate of suicides in the last few years....the suicide rate at Foxconn, even during the suicide spate, was lower than that of China as well as that of all 50 states of the United States

OK that is an interesting and useful insight into what is going on in China as a whole and balances the debate considerably. However I just read the same thing on Wikipedia too and though I'm not doubting it's accuracy I don't think it justifies typing fact in upper case! BBC should always be upper case (respect to Auntie) though I do believe in them much less after the whole Jimmy Saville scandal.

The fact remains that we are dealing with Apple spin. Things were supposed to improve with the new company Pegatron and it appears that it hasn't happened. Again Apple has the resource to do something about this, not just talk about it endlessly.

This is the letter the UK sent out to it's employees the next day. The cynic in me says that only someone with a guilty conscience who has brainwashed it's workforce acts that quickly. It's moving stuff and they have seem to have borrowed some techniques from UK politicians. It's full of fake honesty to deceive the masses with all the usual  "we know we're not perfect and we get stuff wrong but no-one's working harder to change it than we are, there's always room to do more, blah blah blah blah blah..........."

Of course the die hard fans will take it all literally without an ounce of scepticism.

UK Team,
As you know, Apple is dedicated to the advancement of human rights and equality around the world. We are honest about the challenges we face and we work hard to make sure that people who make our products are treated with the dignity and respect they deserve.
Last night, the BBC’s Panorama program called those values into question. Like many of you, Tim and I were deeply offended by the suggestion that Apple would break a promise to the workers in our supply chain or mislead our customers in any way.
I’d like to give you facts and perspective, all of which we shared with the BBC in advance, but were clearly missing from their program.
Panorama showed some of the shocking conditions around tin mining in Indonesia. Apple has publicly stated that tin from Indonesia ends up in our products, and some of that tin likely comes from illegal mines. Here are the facts:
Tens of thousands of artisanal miners are selling tin through many middlemen to the smelters who supply to component suppliers who sell to the world. The government is not addressing the issue, and there is widespread corruption in the undeveloped supply chain. Our team visited the same parts of Indonesia visited by the BBC, and of course we are appalled by what’s going on there.
Apple has two choices: We could make sure all of our suppliers buy tin from smelters outside of Indonesia, which would probably be the easiest thing for us to do and would certainly shield us from criticism. But it would be the lazy and cowardly path, because it would do nothing to improve the situation for Indonesian workers or the environment since Apple consumes a tiny fraction of the tin mined there. We chose the second path, which is to stay engaged and try to drive a collective solution.
We spearheaded the creation of an Indonesian Tin Working Group with other technology companies. Apple is pushing to find and implement a system that holds smelters accountable so we can influence artisanal mining in Indonesia. It could be an approach such as “bagging and tagging” legally mined material, which has been successful over time in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. We are looking to drive similar results in Indonesia, which is the right thing to do.
Panorama also made claims about our commitment to working conditions in our factories. We know of no other company doing as much as Apple does to ensure fair and safe working conditions, to discover and investigate problems, to fix and follow through when issues arise, and to provide transparency into the operations of our suppliers.
I want you to know that more than 1400 of your Apple coworkers are stationed in China to manage our manufacturing operations. They are in the factories constantly — talented engineers and managers who are also compassionate people, trained to speak up when they see safety risks or mistreatment. We also have a team of experts dedicated solely to driving compliance with our Supplier Code of Conduct across our vast supply chain.
In 2014 alone, our Supplier Responsibility team completed 630 comprehensive, in-person audits deep into our supply chain. These audits include face-to-face interviews with workers, away from their managers, in their native language. Sometimes critics point to the discovery of problems as evidence that the process isn’t working. The reality is that we find violations in every audit we have ever performed, no matter how sophisticated the company we're auditing. We find problems, we drive improvement, and then we raise the bar.
Panorama’s report implied that Apple isn’t improving working conditions. Let me tell you, nothing could be further from the truth. Here are just a few examples:
Several years ago, the vast majority of workers in our supply chain worked in excess of 60 hours, and 70+ hour workweeks were typical. After years of slow progress and industry excuses, Apple decided to attack the problem by tracking the weekly hours of over one million workers, driving corrective actions with our suppliers and publishing the results on our website monthly — something no other company had ever done. It takes substantial effort, and we have to weed out false reporting, but it's working. This year, our suppliers have achieved an average of 93% compliance with our 60-hour limit. We can still do better. And we will.
Our auditors were the first to identify and crack down on a ring of unscrupulous labor brokers who were holding workers’ passports and forcing them to pay exorbitant fees. To date, we have helped workers recoup $20 million in excessive payments like these.
We’ve gone far beyond auditing and corrective actions by creating educational programs for workers in the same facilities where they make our products. More than 750,000 people have taken advantage of these college-level courses and enrichment programs, and the feedback we get from students is inspiring.
I will not dive into every issue raised by Panorama in this note, but you can rest assured that we take all allegations seriously, and we investigate every claim. We know there are a lot of issues out there, and our work is never done. We will not rest until every person in our supply chain is treated with the respect and dignity they deserve.
If you’d like to learn more about our Supplier Responsibility program, I encourage you and our customers to visit our website at apple.com/supplierresponsibility.
Thanks for your time and your support.
Jeff

 

[wow]

This is indeed one of those 'religious' kinds of conversations. If you Like Apple this won't change your mind. If you hate Apple this will reinforce your opinion. No one is going to convince anyone of anything.

I have hated Microsoft for years. I hate both their products and the company. You could probably talk to me for hours about what 'good' they have done, or how their products were the 'standard' of the industry, and it won't matter a lick. I have my reasons and will always hate their products and them as a company, but at least I am honest enough to admit it.

I am a died-in-the-wool Apple person, but I recognize that they are not perfect. And just like my post on the Kapex casting, I think it is just fine for people to complain that they could do better, because - just like Festool - they can.

I don't see this post being constructive. To me it seems like more of a rant? But I have no problem with people having their say - whichever side they are on.

Post away - just don't expect to change my mind!

 

[waho6o9]

Apple rocks!

 

[CrazyLarry]

Actually the principle problem with anything Apple is that the exterior facade of pretty design overrides everything else, internally their produts are diabolical; the hardware is all closed, proprietary and positively resists upgrades or lifespan enhancements. The software is simply crippled, hamstrung, FreeBSD with pretty wrapping paper. They take from open source and give almost nothing back.

The only good thing about them is that they offered a distracting thorn in the side of Gates which helped open source get off the ground.

In the interest of fairness I'd say from 15 years commercial experience of big rollouts and networks M$ is still worse though! But at least Bill never really strayed into hardware (unless you count wavy keyboards)

On a positive note Apple's point about Indonesia and the Congo is seems a very valid one, just walking away and having no engagement at all would only make the conditions and situation worse, driving all problems underground, unseen and unreported with or without Panorama (who do admitedly have a track record for both being sensationalist and wrong!)

 

[JBird]

Actually the principle problem with anything Apple is that the exterior facade of pretty design overrides everything else, internally their produts are diabolical; the hardware is all closed, proprietary and positively resists upgrades or lifespan enhancements.

And yet the useful lifespan of Apple devices still far exceeds the useful life of competitors devices by years.  How many android devices are still supported with software updates three years later? None. How many Windows PCs are still spritely and useful after 5 years? Not many. How do Apple devices live so long given the limitations you ascribe?

 

[wow]

Actually the principle problem with anything Apple is that the exterior facade of pretty design overrides everything else, internally their produts are diabolical; the hardware is all closed, proprietary and positively resists upgrades or lifespan enhancements. The software is simply crippled, hamstrung, FreeBSD with pretty wrapping paper.

I have a different view.

Apple products are more closed because it protects the user experience. Microsoft along with Dell, Acer, (put any PC company name here) proved that.

And before you try to argue this point, realize that EVEN Microsoft themselves have finally come to embrace this position with their 'Surface' product line. Exactly how 'open' and 'upgradable' is the Surface product? Case closed.

Also, I TOTALLY disagree that there is a NEED for upgrades or 'lifespan' enhancements. As proof of my statement:

I am in the process of replacing my email server. I need to get new hardware - not because of a failure, but because the hardware is no longer available and IF it dies I don't have a backup. The software will need to be upgraded as well, again because of the upgrade to the hardware, not due to any problem.

This system (hardware and software) has supported up to 1,000 email clients at its peak. I have never had a failure, either hardware or software. So how old is this stuff, you ask?

I bought it and installed it in 2002. The software was upgraded in 2004. So both hardware and software are a DECADE old and still working. There has been absolutely NO NEED to upgrade either the hardware or the software because IT JUST WORKS.

The sad truth is that this point that is totally lost on most Windoze people (not saying you are one of them, btw) because they are caught up in the 'you need to upgrade your (insert HW or SW item name here) to support (insert HW or SW item name here)' because your old (insert HW or SW item name here) quit working or is no longer supported. They're so used to this that they don't even realize that they wouldn't have to do that if the hardware and software were better designed and worked together better. It's pretty sad, really.

I grant you that my email server example is somewhat unusual, but it's a real-world example of the stability and lifespan of Apple products.

So ... do you think I'll consider switching to Windoze and Exchange for my new email server?

Hahahahahahahaha.....

 

[Roseland]

I find it profoundly disappointing when people state categorically that they would never buy a product from [insert Festool, Apple, BMW…] when they’ve never even tried them.

I used to think Festool was overpriced, but once I’d tried their products I was converted.  And as with Apple individually the products are good, but it’s the system integration that makes them great.

Although I’ve used Windows PCs extensively, for my money it’s Apple every time.  I know many people who’ve dumped Windows for Apple; I have yet to meet anyone who has switched the other way.

And when I bought my first Festool product (a TS55) I knew no other Festool users.  I now have three friends who have now bought into the brand - all people who would not have considered going beyond DeWalt if they hadn’t seen, and tried, the products for themselves.

And can anyone name another company that even tries to improve the working conditions of its suppliers?

Andrew

 

[CrazyLarry]

They don't, they get thrown away because they are flimsy, break and can't be repaired, I know at least half a dozen people with broken ipads and iphones, come to think of it at least three of them have more than one broken device...

Meanwhile my ancient Nokia E72 soldiers on and it's best feature? It's extremely good at being a phone, I can hear and be heard not something I can say for anyone with an iphone which despite having phone in their name seem to be better at doing anything other than being a phone!

As for macs they have always had a high build quality physically but dire choices made interms of servicing upgradeability going all the way bac to the IIe the Mackintosh the Quadra terrible layouts intolerant of RAM made on a Tuesday (that was the joke anyway... )

As for Generic PCs? Running XP (the only current stable, secure(ish) MS OS - always funny how they withdraw support once it's stable and no longer needs constant updates...) or a rock solid Debian or OpenBSD? And yes you can throw both those on a Mac I have one here that duals both as well as running Leopard. I doubt there will be current ipads or iphone 5s around in a year or 2 because Apple don't want them to last more than a couple of years.

On the other hand I know of transparent bridging OpenBSD firewalls with 64MB of RAM running on old Compaq Pentiums still serving with year+ uptimes and barely noticeable load no matter how many users.

Apples are pretty both at the interface and externally & thanks to the legacy of Bruce Tognaziini, have an almost effortless early learning curve but then mac users top out just as quick as windows users do knowing what they know the way they learnt it and no more.

To me they share more similarities at a software level than there are differences really but just because the machines are white doesn't make them saintly any more than Steve wearing black made him satan

ed: repetition (makes a change it's usually deviation that gets me) - a joke for the brits

 

[CrazyLarry]

Apple products are more closed because it protects the user experience.

Tell that to Jennifer Lawrence!

 

[ifit]

The problem is not just apple its large corporations in general, we have been brainwashed to work hard then spend hard when we are not working while these large corporations suck as much as they can out of people and the environment.
There needs to be better incentives than profit. Apple sell premium products yet they manufacture them as cheaply as possible in the east to maximise profits further, at least festool keep it on home soil but i suppose that will change eventually.
The life cycle of these products is ridiculous, years ago you bought a premium product and expect it to last for life now its 2 years.
There is so much waste that it can not be good for the planet but we are fed the illusion that our lives will be better if we keep buying all this crap.
The sooner we come to the end of this corporation/ consumerism phase the better but the problem is it will probably not end until too much damage has already been done.