The DOMINO has evolved.

[mntbighker]

I just picked up a 4mm bit for my Domino to help build some pine shelves from 1/2 inch stock for a friend. In looking at the discussion about pins vs the new design I believe I'm going to prefer the pins. I am a bit irritated that the pins don't fit in a 4mm slot and also that the Domino isn't really designed to accommodate the thinner material the 4mm is great for. The 4mm is great but lets face facts, it IS an afterthought with some issues. The issues are well worth the price though if you ask me. In general I believe a next gen Domino could resolve many issues and make it a much better tool than it already is. For one thing I would love to have a way to just know the slot is centered in the material without having to even think about it no matter the thickness (within reason). But I'm an amateur with different needs than a PRO-feshunal cabinet maker ;-)  This was actually the first time I ever used my Domino in any meaningful way and I made a few mistakes. But it's a great bit of kit.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I just picked up a 4mm bit for my Domino to help build some pine shelves from 1/2 inch stock for a friend. In looking at the discussion about pins vs the new design I believe I'm going to prefer the pins. I am a bit irritated that the pins don't fit in a 4mm slot and also that the Domino isn't really designed to accommodate the thinner material the 4mm is great for. The 4mm is great but lets face facts, it IS an afterthought with some issues. The issues are well worth the price though if you ask me. In general I believe a next gen Domino could resolve many issues and make it a much better tool than it already is. For one thing I would love to have a way to just know the slot is centered in the material without having to even think about it no matter the thickness (within reason). But I'm an amateur with different needs than a PRO-feshunal cabinet maker ;-)  This was actually the first time I ever used my Domino in any meaningful way and I made a few mistakes. But it's a great bit of kit.

Perfectly centered thicknesswise, maybe not, but it is easy to measure the thickness of your stock, e.g. with a caliper or ruler, mark the centerline of the thickness and then set the fence of the Domino machine very close to thickness centerline using your eyeballs.  The centerline of the pins is marked on the Domino machine and that need only be lined up with your mark on the stock.

Dave R.

 

[mntbighker]

Perfectly centered thicknesswise, maybe not, but it is easy to measure the thickness of your stock, e.g. with a caliper or ruler, mark the centerline of the thickness and then set the fence of the Domino machine very close to thickness centerline using your eyeballs.  The centerline of the pins is marked on the Domino machine and that need only be lined up with your mark on the stock.

Dave R.

The problem is the Domino could not physically be adjusted centered on my material without using a shim. The adjustment was simply never designed for stock this thin I assume because the 4mm bit didn't exist. I was only commenting that I would like to be able to adjust it and if they are going to design a next gen Domino it would be nice to have a system that helps me center it. After all Festool is all about making wood working easier and more accurate

 

[Oldwood]

??? Just got my new domino and spent the afternoon trying to calibrate the stop dogs. No go!! With the new system if your mortise is not centered you change out the dog for one that is .025" offset. That would work well if you were off center by .025" if not you are still out but maybe by not as much if you are lucky!! The old system with the eccentric pin allowed for infinite adjustment to the max limit so if you are out by .015" you turn the pin to get that offset. With the new system you are either out by this much or out by that much but there is no accommodation to get it RIGHT ON.
This is not what I would expect from a company with a reputation for accurate tools? I sure don't see this new fence as an improvement!

 

[Brice Burrell]

Oldwood, first welcome to the forum. You may want to call Festool's service dept and see what they have to say. Good luck and let us know how things work out.

 

[Oldwood]

Hi Brice
Thanks for the welcome!
I am in touch with the guy I bought my domino from and will let you know how it turns out. After looking a little more closely at the two systems (pins versus dogs) in terms of calibration with the pins each hash mark gives you .01" of offset with a total of .020" or any dimension between 0" and .020" with the dogs you change one dog this gives you .0125" of offset if this gets you a perfect calibration you are done. If it does not give you a perfect calibration.........you are still done  

 

[Oldwood]

So I talked to Festool service and as I suspected the machine will be returned for a replacement machine.
The service rep indicated that the machine was not properly calibrated at the factory and if changing the stop dog did not fix it then it must be returned. My supplier was able to find me a Domino with the old fence style so I went with that one. As with others on the forum I think it will be more versatile and also have a better method of calibration.
Thanks to all on the forum for your valuable information.

 

[mntbighker]

Is it time to start collecting old style Domino machines on craiglist? Will there be a whole subculture of Festoolians with them?  ;D

 

[mntbighker]

The Mods need to re-name this thread "The DOMINO (fence) has evolved into a piece of crap" 

That's a little negative but I'm sorry to say accurate  :'(

 

[dan-imal]

The Mods need to re-name this thread "The DOMINO (fence) has evolved into a piece of crap" 

That's a little negative but I'm sorry to say accurate  :'(

Wow, is this really the case?

Does anyone have anything good to say about the new design? 

Thanks

 

[dan-imal]

It could be argued that the new fence, in conjunction with the cross stop (which is included with the Domino SET), offers the best of both worlds... pins and paddles.  I'm sure the debate will wage on about which people prefer.

No way. But we will leave that for another time

Why not?  I understand using the cross stop makes the unit much larger, but besides that, why not?

I'm really on the fence here folks.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Wow, is this really the case?

Does anyone have anything good to say about the new design? 

Thanks

Yes.  I have both versions, and I have been saying since the beginning that I prefer the new fence over the old fence. That's not just an empty statement. The old fence is sitting on my desk in pieces at this very moment as my reference for some things I am looking at, while the new fence is attached to my Domino down in the workshop. I am in the relatively unique position that I have both fences at my disposal, and I personally choose to use the new fence over the old fence.

The original nay-sayers of the fence design were those people that owned the old fence and had seen pictures of the new fence, and their primary issue was that you could not use the new Stop Dogs to register a new mortise bore from an existing bore. While they are absolutely correct that you can't do this, what gets lost in the hoopla is that you would virtually never want to register two mortises this close together. I am not saying that this could never be an option or desire, but for 98% of the applications for a tenon, it is not something you would need to do.

Yes, this calibration limitation is the only legitimate issue I have heard about and would agree myself, but at 0.006" variation, it is far less significant than people make it out to be. (And yes, I am the person that wrote the procedure that people are using to make this calibration. If it wasn't for this procedure, most users would never even bother examining the calibration to begin with.) It is a one-time calibration procedure, and if you need an accuracy greater than 0.006", then simply file down the edge of the dog.

The biggest reason why I prefer the new dogs versus the old pins, is because they can be fully retracted and locked down when not in use. This was one of my main complaints about the pins when I first began working with the Domino over 3 years ago. The spring-loaded pins tend to push the fence away from the workpiece, and this causes alignment and tracking errors, which is far more important.

The other thing that gets overlooked is that the new fence also incorporates several design improvements in several areas. It has been over a year since I originally compared the two fences, so I have forgotten most of what I learned back then, but the new fence uses a different grind on the mating aluminum clamping surfaces to eliminate the fence creep problems people were complaining about. The sight gauge is closer to the fence and now has a magnified edge to make it easier to see your pencil lines. I know there were a couple of other improvements, but I can't remember them right now, and I am too lazy to bring the other fence up from the shop to look at while I type.

 

[Toller]

their primary issue was that you could not use the new Stop Dogs to register a new mortise bore from an existing bore. While they are absolutely correct that you can't do this, what gets lost in the hoopla is that you would virtually never want to register two mortises this close together. I am not saying that this could never be an option or desire, but for 98% of the applications for a tenon, it is not something you would need to do.

The biggest reason why I prefer the new dogs versus the old pins, is because they can be fully retracted and locked down when not in use. This was one of my main complaints about the pins when I first began working with the Domino over 3 years ago. The spring-loaded pins tend to push the fence away from the workpiece, and this causes alignment and tracking errors, which is far more important.

[/quote]
The pins do get in the way and it would be nice to lock them in occasionally; but I frequently use them to position off another mortise.  I would hate to not be able to do that.

I am late to the discussion and I am sure it is in there somewhere; but the 4mm cutter CAN be used with the old domino, the pins just don't fit.  Is that right?

 

[Tezzer]

Rick im also in the position to use both and the ability to register from a pin is far more important than being able to retract a pin or have a clearer sight gauge. I have yet to hear one person who thinks the old pins are so strong they force the head off the work piece.

You say there is no reason at all to use the pin to register from the previous mortise, if thats the case how would you use the Domino to join a leg and rail? I would love to know your method.

 

[tbellemare]

but the 4mm cutter CAN be used with the old domino, the pins just don't fit.  Is that right?

Yes, the 4mm tenons, cutter, and the new angle bracket all work with the original Domino.

Tom

 

[dan-imal]

This is EXACTLY what I'm looking for Rick, Toller, and Tezzer.  I really appreciate the comments - please keep the discussion going.

I am buying one of these versions in the next few days, I really don't want to make a mistake since switching to the new fence is $300.  I'm wondering how you do two close together mortises, like on a table apron-leg joint which is what Tezzer said.  I know you can use the sight line but it has to be loads quicker to let the pin catch the previous mortise.

I'm also wondering why the change needed to be made if this wasn't a patent infringement?  I guess it's too late for the Festool employees to answer, but hopefully tomorrow.

Rick, is that really the biggest reason you like the new fence?  The pins don't seem that strong to me.  I'd think the cutting action would push much harder than the pins.

Again, the information sharing is VERY HELPFUL.  Thank you very much

Oh, and Toller, the 4mm and the new fence are both backwards compatible according to what I've read.

 

[sw1211]

but the 4mm cutter CAN be used with the old domino, the pins just don't fit.  Is that right?

Yes, the 4mm tenons, cutter, and the new angle bracket all work with the original Domino.

Tom

I believe he wanted to know if the pins on the original Domino version would fit in the mortise cut by the 4mm cutter, which by my calculation they won't, the pins are 5 mm in diameter.

 

[tbellemare]

Doh!

You are correct, Steve! I read it wrong.

Tom

 

[Oldwood]

Hey Rick
Great manual thank you for that. The stop dogs on the fence i got had a offset of .0125" not .006"
The standard dog measured .288" the offset measures .263" The dogs had a relief grind on both sides so it can be used left or right depending on which side the pin was inserted from this means the .025" variance between the two dogs needs to be divided by two to get the offset for one dog.
I checked all this with a set of good quality digital calipers as it was not what was listed in the manual. I don't know if they have changed the offset dogs but I think .0125"is too coarse an adjustment and much prefer the eccentric pin style.
FWIW

Gerry

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I'm wondering how you do two close together mortises, like on a table apron-leg joint which is what Tezzer said. 

I am not sure what kind of furniture Tezzer makes, but I have never wanted to have a 4" tall apron on a table. Even on my Expanding Dining Room Table where I needed to maximize the apron to hide all of the mechanical components, it still was nowhere near 4" tall. Either the table height would be too tall, or the table guests would get their legs pinched. The method he suggested requires a 4 inch wide joint.

When I have applications where I need two tenons close together, I am going to take the time to carefully plan out their locations to maximize the strength of the joint. I plan out the tenon placement to have relatively equal gaps between the tenons and the edges and between the two tenons. There is a relative narrow range of board widths where I could blindly plunge the tenon using nothing but the pins.

I'm also wondering why the change needed to be made if this wasn't a patent infringement?  I guess it's too late for the Festool employees to answer, but hopefully tomorrow.

This comes directly from Festool. The original reason for making the change was at first over fear of a patent infringement, but that fear proved to be unfounded. However, initial feedback from actual woodworkers using the new design favored the new design over the old design (same conclusion I came to). If memory serves me, Tezzer does not own both versions, but simply has used the new version, either from a friend or by trying it out from his dealer.

Rick, is that really the biggest reason you like the new fence?  The pins don't seem that strong to me.  I'd think the cutting action would push much harder than the pins.

No, that is not the sole reason, but it is a significant reason. The spring pressure is not that great, but if you are too lazy to always clamp the workpiece down (not that I would ever admit to doing that), it is enough to make it more difficult to keep the fence tight to the workpiece at the start of the cut. If the fence is not tight to the workpiece, the friction pads next to the pins won't have as much "stickum" to keep the joiner from moving sideways at the start of the plunge. With a machine that has such tight tolerances where precision is the ultimate goal, then, well, precision is critical. As I said, there were many improvements made, but I just don't feel like digging through past data to find my original comments.