The Festool-is-too-expensive-i-own-something-else-group.com

[aas]

I think it's our nature in general to be vocal when we are not happy about something than when we are happy.

Example, the whole Carvex 'issue'... I am so disappointed with the Carvex, that if anyone asks an opinion, I will quickly jump in and say P1CC - some may perceive this as trolling, inexperienced user, or whatever - the fact remains that the tool does not meet my exacting demands. Same with the TS55 which I feel is underpowered (for me). In both these cases, I have commented on posts, and with hindsight, it is possible that this is taken in the wrong way. The positive comments I have made on the otherhand for the Midi, MFK700 etc., are probably missed in a sea of praise.

To say Festool is 'too expensive' is missing the point. To say people don't 'get' the system approach is a naive and insulting way to look at this. I will freely admit that the reason I didn't buy the Mafell MT55cc was thinking that the 'system' approach was spot on - now I couldn't careless for T-loc systainers, plug-it leads or whatever else, just give me a high quality tool that works and doesn't cutout - the system approach is not the be all and end all.

I also think that some users are blind to the better products competitors have (for example the Mafell guide rails - ease of joining, clamping near the edge, etc.) It doesn't make Festool bad, just not the best at everything.

 

[John H]

I'd say some people don't like/agree with the whole 'Festool can do no wrong' vibe that the forum has, and over compensate in their responses to posts.

I think some of it may be what I read over at other woodworking websites.  Paraphrasing: "I don't go to the FOG because its like going to a cult meeting, and that's not for me, I just like woodworking."

I agree with some of this commentary.  What turns me off most is the "if it's not Festool, it's junk" arguing that goes on.  For the record, I love my Festools.  I bought an MFT, Kapex, and RTS400 just in the last 3 months.  My decision to buy them were heavily influenced by BALANCED commentary here.  I emphasize BALANCED because fan boy posts are not helpful.

It's the FanBoys/Fanatics.  It is not that Festools are too expensive - they are not always the "Best" tool for the job and if you try to point that out, the FanBoys/Fanatics, paid shills, Festool Dealers/Employees,  etc come running...

How many projects do you see where someone has used a Domino when a biscuit cutter or even a simple screw would do the job - but the are desperately trying to rationalize their expensive purchase to themselves?

Kapex - people spend 3x the amount of a decent miter saw to buy a Kapex and when they get it - they are disappointed with the fit and finish (or the table isn't flat,etc) but if they dare same something about it or ask a question....

 

[Brice Burrell]

......2. WOW passed, and Shane left Festool USA -
Agree.....

Almost all internet forums are on the decline as other social media platforms have become so popular.  Also, most things peak and then decline at some point, maybe the FOG has reached its peak.  I think WOW helped slow or minimize the downswing the FOG was seeing, but it was still there.  The thing that I think is playing a much bigger role in what we're seeing on the FOG now is Shane leaving Festool.

Shane's dedication customer service, fair moderation and leadership set the tone here on the FOG from the top down.  When he left it seemed that Festool dropped the ball with the FOG and things suffered.

I know it's more complicated than one person's role.  Let's hope the ebb and flow theory holds true and things swing back up.     

 

 

[Big G]

I'd say some people don't like/agree with the whole 'Festool can do no wrong' vibe that the forum has, and over compensate in their responses to posts.

I think some of it may be what I read over at other woodworking websites.  Paraphrasing: "I don't go to the FOG because its like going to a cult meeting, and that's not for me, I just like woodworking."

I agree with some of this commentary.  What turns me off most is the "if it's not Festool, it's junk" arguing that goes on.  For the record, I love my Festools.  I bought an MFT, Kapex, and RTS400 just in the last 3 months.  My decision to buy them were heavily influenced by BALANCED commentary here.  I emphasize BALANCED because fan boy posts are not helpful.

It's the FanBoys/Fanatics.  It is not that Festools are too expensive - they are not always the "Best" tool for the job and if you try to point that out, the FanBoys/Fanatics, paid shills, Festool Dealers/Employees,  etc come running...

How many projects do you see where someone has used a Domino when a biscuit cutter or even a simple screw would do the job - but the are desperately trying to rationalize their expensive purchase to themselves?

Kapex - people spend 3x the amount of a decent miter saw to buy a Kapex and when they get it - they are disappointed with the fit and finish (or the table isn't flat,etc) but if they dare same something about it or ask a question....

Totally 100percent agree with you there but your missing the main point, the fanboys as you call them, are inexperienced, generally old and bored, who believe that by buying an expensive well engineered tool will turn them in to cabinet makers and when it doesn't the either slag off the tool, as being badly engineered, or say nothing but praise for it because they feel embarressed for laying out all their money on something they cannot use. search the classifieds, full of tools used once.
It isn't just Festool these people crave, Canon photographic equipment , iPhones, iPads, and their latest obsession the Apple Watch.
all survive because of fanboys not because of the professionals.
I am sat waiting (yet again) for my transfer flight and I am surrounded by people, all old, playing on their iPhones and iPads, no Apple Watches though, maybe the Italians aren't as sad as the rest of the world or the Watch isn't available in Italy yet.

 

[Brice Burrell]

It's the FanBoys/Fanatics.  It is not that Festools are too expensive - they are not always the "Best" tool for the job and if you try to point that out, the FanBoys/Fanatics, paid shills, Festool Dealers/Employees,  etc come running....

John, this isn't meant as an attack on you.  However, I disagree with you, at least in part.  Sure, the so-called fanboy/fanatics do on occasion unfairly jump on people.  In their defense you will most often find this happens when someone tolls or posts with very obvious bias against Festool.  When people post legitimate and/or constructive criticism they are treated very fairly here. 

Furthermore, even the most die hard Festool fan knows Festool isn't the best at everything.  This is a Festool enthusiast site, one is going to find pro Festool answers to the posts here.  That's just how enthusiast sites work.  I understand it can be frustrating for casual Festool users to dig through all of the Festool praise to find the practical/helpful info.  If one is willing finding well balanced opinions here is not as hard as some would have you believe.                 

 

[semenza]

It's happening again [sad]

Look - it's a Festool owners forum ...

If there's something wrong with your Festool, sure talk about it here.

If you think a particular Festool is poorly designed or you can see an improvement .. here's the place.

You've done something awesome with your Festools - show your proud work here.

You're a regular and you just want to chew the fat with your other Festool owning buddies ... here's the place.

You're new to Festool and you want to ask questions - hundreds of experienced Festool owners are here to help.

.........

Why come here just to post "don't buy Festool, it's overpriced garbage" ??

I can't recall any post where even the most avid Festool devotee says that Festool can do no wrong .. why use statements like that to defend a hollow reason for having a dig at enthusiastic people?

Plenty of Rolex owners out there you can go and abuse for not buying a Casio ... go and troll somewhere else is my thinking.

Apply genuine and respectful criticism to the tools, company, service - fine. Cast aspersions on the people that choose to buy Festool and you can go and eat yourself as far as I'm concerned.

Well said Kev.

Seth

 

[semenza]

It's the FanBoys/Fanatics.  It is not that Festools are too expensive - they are not always the "Best" tool for the job and if you try to point that out, the FanBoys/Fanatics, paid shills, Festool Dealers/Employees,  etc come running...

            Anyone one reading FOG will have a hard time not thinking that the forum is populated mostly by fanboys. But the fact that it is an entire forum dedicated to the Festool brand needs to be taken into account in a realistic way. YES, most of the people on FOG at least like Festool. That should not come as a surprise to anyone whether they are a FOG member or a first time visitor. Because the forum is a FESTOOL forum.

      When people take the time to read a bunch of FOG threads that are actually about tools and advice, it should become apparent that the information is genuine, legitimate and accurate. And that there are a lot of non-fanboy Festool users.

    FOG could use more constructive topics than it has been getting lately and fewer threads like this one. Some useful feedback can be obtained from threads of this type but these are also the types of threads that drive people away from forums. In particular visitors  and new members looking for information and help see threads like this one and think  'oh, another typical internet forum with people taking sides and bickering'.

Seth
         

 

[Jamie_MA]

It's not just price being the driving factor. My last two big purchases were potential black and green but wound up red/white and yellow.

I felt the Mafell P1CC was of better quality.  ???

I was able to order and receive the Mirka Deros 3 months sooner.  :'(

Quality and Delivery were more important to me than price, very happy with the 2 items but wish they had the plug-it  [embarassed]

 

[John H]

Totally 100percent agree with you there but your missing the main point, the fanboys as you call them, are inexperienced, generally old and bored, who believe that by buying an expensive well engineered tool will turn them in to cabinet makers and when it doesn't the either slag off the tool, as being badly engineered, or say nothing but praise for it because they feel embarressed for laying out all their money on something they cannot use. search the classifieds, full of tools used once.
It isn't just Festool these people crave, Canon photographic equipment , iPhones, iPads, and their latest obsession the Apple Watch.
all survive because of fanboys not because of the professionals.
I am sat waiting (yet again) for my transfer flight and I am surrounded by people, all old, playing on their iPhones and iPads, no Apple Watches though, maybe the Italians aren't as sad as the rest of the world or the Watch isn't available in Italy yet.

I think you hit the nail on the head. 

Misery loves company.  When you shell out the big bucks to purchase a Kapex or Domino and then you have problems with it or read the numerous posts about a Kapex motor burning up after 2 years, etc - I think it would be hard for someone to actually acknowledge that they got caught up in the 'hype'

Lot of Festool owners are 'polishers' - collectors, whatever you want to call them.  They like taking pictures of all their systainers stacked up - as if the one with the most systainers is the "winner" of something??????

Don't get me wrong - I love my Tracksaw with the 106", I am happy with my Trion Jigsaw, DTS 400 sander, CT36 with workstation - but the LR32 system and the parallel guide were not worth it

What really turned me off - is all the people that have been paid by Festool to appear in their ads/videos etc  or have been given free tools -  post in this forum, yet they make no mention of the fact that they have received the product for free, have been paid, etc.

I agree - my posts have taken a negative turn - AFTER I found out about people like Warner

 

[TylerC]

First off, I really appreciate that you all care about maintaining the quality of the FOG.

As someone new to the Festool USA team, I'd like your thoughts on the solutions for these issues/problems/etc? How can Festool or FOG members improve the FOG? (I'm not asking about how to improve quality/prices of the tools. That's a whole different topic.)

I'm kind of opening the floodgates, but I'm curious.

 

[teocaf]

What really turned me off - is all the people that have been paid by Festool to appear in their ads/videos etc  or have been given free tools -  post in this forum, yet they make no mention of the fact that they have received the product for free, have been paid, etc.

[member=20021]John H[/member]
Just a few questions:

Who is doing this?  If they don't claim it and Festool isn't saying, how do you know?
Why does this bother you?
Are you upset that Festool hasn't sent any tools your way?
Do you post projects on the forum to show the polishers the way?

thanks in advance for your answers...

 

[blaszcsj]

I have been a festoolian a little over a year now and I have found this site to be rather interesting to read thru. I literally read it every day, sometimes more. The festool tools I have are fantastic and look forward to owning more. I take the attitude of investing in my tools and I look at the value any tool against the task and its performance at said task. This is where the site has definitely helped guide me such that I can make more educated decisions on the pros and cons of each tool and how they compare to the rest of the market.

I would like to see more projects and commentary on those projects. This is where I have found the most enjoyment in reading. Especially when people post their setups, jigs, triumphs, and their mistakes. I have found that this is where commentary is the least bias and most encouraging. Would there be ways of stimulating more quality postings in this area? maybe small rewards for topic owners if their projects receive more than 500 posts/replies. I dont know, food for thought.

 

[John H]

teocaf - lets just say that one of them like to run his mouth and bragged in another forum how Festool paid him for two days of his time to appear in one of their video's.  Anytime there is something negative posted about Festool, I can just about guarantee that this person will post in that thread...

Why does it bother me - if you have some time, read this:
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/press-releases/ftc-publishes-final-guides-governing-endorsements-testimonials/091005revisedendorsementguides.pdf

and here is a quote from another publication:

Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. She tells you it performs wonderfully and offers fantastic new features that nobody else has. Would that recommendation factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.

Now suppose the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Endorsement Guides.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

teocaf - lets just say that one of them like to run his mouth and bragged in another forum how Festool paid him for two days of his time to appear in one of their video's.  Anytime there is something negative posted about Festool, I can just about guarantee that this person will post in that thread...

Why does it bother me - if you have some time, read this:
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/press-releases/ftc-publishes-final-guides-governing-endorsements-testimonials/091005revisedendorsementguides.pdf

and here is a quote from another publication:

Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. She tells you it performs wonderfully and offers fantastic new features that nobody else has. Would that recommendation factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.

Now suppose the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Endorsement Guides.

You are something else. 

On the payroll?  Yeah, sure thing.

Compensated, sure.  Personally almost 3 days of my time is worth quite a bit more then a rail saw, especially when I had one to begin with. 

I wish I was on the payroll, wish I didn't have to pay a few hundred bucks to have a couple tools repaired after 8 years.

I actually wish you would contribute anything worthwhile, instead of the same recycled bs you usually do.

 

[leakyroof]

I personally don't have an issue with someone pointing out the shortcomings of any Festool product, I actually welcome it because it helps inform my purchasing decisions, but ONLY if they've actually used said product. I don't take advice from people that haven't used the tool...

  Good Point, that's always annoying isn't it, no matter what the item is.  The 'Non-Owner Expert'... [wink]

 

[John H]

On the payroll?  Yeah, sure thing.

Compensated, sure.  Personally almost 3 days of my time is worth quite a bit more then a rail saw, especially when I had one to begin with. 

I wish I was on the payroll, wish I didn't have to pay a few hundred bucks to have a couple tools repaired after 8 years.

I actually wish you would contribute anything worthwhile, instead of the same recycled bs you usually do.

teocaf - there is your proof that you asked for

WarnerConstruction acknowledged he was paid/compensated to be in a Festool Advertisement

Here is the quote again from the FTC
Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. She tells you it performs wonderfully and offers fantastic new features that nobody else has. Would that recommendation factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.

Now suppose the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Endorsement Guides.

Yet Warner continues to post - shouldn't there be some sort of disclosure per the FTC guidelines?  How many 'members' on FOG are in a similar situation?

I will admit that my posts have taken a negative turn when I found out about the 'shills' on this forum. 

 

[semenza]

Lets keep this civil and avoid personal attacks.

Seth

 

[peter halle]

Darcy was compensated to be in an advertisement.  There is a big difference between that and posting on a forum.  Most people would probably notice that he posts his mind and when he has something to say non-Festool he does.

Peter

 

[six-point socket]

I came here after I purchased my first Festool and while I was looking for a forum on quality tools and the work/projects that are accomplished with them.

While signing up I learned that this forum is owned/operated by Festool USA but discussions, reviews i.e. not limited to Festool products which is a very liberal decision given the fact who obviously pays for the "bs;. I also came to understand while reading older threads that this wasn't always the case as the FOG was privately owned/operated in the beginning - that helps to understand why it's not limited to Festool.

Personally I think diversity is great, especially since not every tool is available from Festool but I agree that comments and threads solely about how Festool is to expensive get old pretty quick. Personally I don't give much (honestly, nothing) about comments like that. There are enough people who deem Festool to be not too expensive but I guess some people just can't accept that.

It's the same boring blah blah us "hobbyists" get to hear about how we buy this or how we are not interesting often enough. Would be funny to see which companies would survive a break-away of the "hobbyist"-client-base.

I just don't care, I do what I want to do - think what I want to think - times to precious to waste it over someone talking bs.

Kind regards,
Oliver 

 

[John H]

Darcy was compensated to be in an advertisement.  There is a big difference between that and posting on a forum.  Most people would probably notice that he posts his mind and when he has something to say non-Festool he does.

Peter

Uh, no

Example 7: A college student who has earned a reputation as a video game expert maintains a personal weblog or “blog” where he posts entries about his gaming experiences. Readers of his blog frequently seek his opinions about video game hardware and software. As it has done in the past, the manufacturer of a newly released video game system sends the student a free copy of the system and asks him to write about it on his blog. He tests the new gaming system and writes a favorable review. Because his review is disseminated via a form of consumer-generated media in which his relationship to the advertiser is not inherently obvious, readers are unlikely to know that he has received the video game system free of charge in exchange for his review of the product, and given the value of the video game system, this fact likely would materially affect the credibility they attach to his endorsement. Accordingly, the blogger should clearly and conspicuously disclose that he received the gaming system free of charge. The manufacturer should advise him at the time it provides the gaming system that this connection should be disclosed, and it should have procedures in place to try to monitor his postings for compliance.

Note the last line where it indicates the Manufacturer (in this case Festool) "should have procedures in place to try to monitor his postings for compliance"