The Festool-is-too-expensive-i-own-something-else-group.com

[Stone Message]

First off, I really appreciate that you all care about maintaining the quality of the FOG.

As someone new to the Festool USA team, I'd like your thoughts on the solutions for these issues/problems/etc? How can Festool or FOG members improve the FOG? (I'm not asking about how to improve quality/prices of the tools. That's a whole different topic.)

I'm kind of opening the floodgates, but I'm curious.

Hi Tyler

I think that your question is valid but on the wrong thread. This thread has turned into a anti Festool supporter grudge fest and it is not producing anything useful or interesting.

It is just such a shame that some people do this - we get one or two a year but who knows what pressures they might have in their lives.

Never mind. There will be a lot of people tuning in to see how this pans out - a pity that we are not getting some positive contributions rather than so much anti this that and the other.

Peter

 

[Shane Holland]

Biased reviews are certainly something that exist. I think a lot of consumers don't realize how biased a LOT of content is. Magazine articles, blog posts, YouTube videos, etc. It's everywhere and there are probably more shills than you could imagine. Bloggers and YouTubers get kickbacks for links to Amazon. They wouldn't talk poorly about a product because it would affect their commissions. Some magazines give bias to advertisers when they do reviews.

Anyway, from someone who's been on the inside, Festool has more integrity than any other company I know of. Darcy is far from being a shill. Anyone who knows the guy knows he speaks his mind and isn't for sell. He, like most of the people on this forum, is an enthusiast and sees value in what's offered by Festool. He's not out peddling Festool's wares. Those who are featured in Festool's videos spoke their own words, not from a script. They were not told they would be compensated in advance of doing the video and were rarely compensated afterwards. And, in those cases, it was very very modest compensation. Darcy is in no position to gain anything at this point, so he doesn't have a vested interest in promoting Festool for personal gain.

No one can expect Darcy or anyone else to add "oh, and I was in a Festool video and got a free ----" to every single post on this forum. That's unrealistic. I think the spirit of the FTC guidelines were to prevent underhanded, intentional and deceptive practices by corporations. This all started because of the Whole Foods situation.

I have long been an advocate of Festool's 30-day money back guarantee. Any feedback from another consumer should be taken with a grain of salt, or sometimes a big scoop. Buy it, try it, return it if it doesn't meet your expectations. Easy.

But calling someone a shill when you have partial (at best) information isn't fair. Of course, everyone has to judge these things for themselves and make their own decisions.

Shane

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

On the payroll?  Yeah, sure thing.

Compensated, sure.  Personally almost 3 days of my time is worth quite a bit more then a rail saw, especially when I had one to begin with. 

I wish I was on the payroll, wish I didn't have to pay a few hundred bucks to have a couple tools repaired after 8 years.

I actually wish you would contribute anything worthwhile, instead of the same recycled bs you usually do.

teocaf - there is your proof that you asked for

WarnerConstruction acknowledged he was paid/compensated to be in a Festool Advertisement

Here is the quote again from the FTC
Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. She tells you it performs wonderfully and offers fantastic new features that nobody else has. Would that recommendation factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.

Now suppose the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Endorsement Guides.

Yet Warner continues to post - bs there be some sort of disclosure per the FTC guidelines?  How many 'members' on FOG are in a similar situation?

I will admit that my posts have taken a negative turn when I found out about the 'shills' on this forum.

Do you think I own every festool? Do you think I have some sort of back door access to festools warehouse?

Do you think I get new tools sent to me every week because I never worried about the bed of my kapex or the stupid mold lines in the casting? 

Whatever, you must get some sort of weird pleasure trying to prove a point about something that doesn't exist.

Hang on, the ups guy is here with another truck full of tools and ond of those really big checks.

You probably think that just happened too, don't you.

 

[teocaf]

[member=20021]John H[/member]
yeah, that's an impressive federal regulation you've got there!  please don't tell me you go into a bar with a copy of the Constitution and say stuff like: "As you can clearly see here, my freedom of expression is guaranteed right in this section and..."

look, i don't know what i got into the middle of right here, but i'm a practical man.  i realize that the forum is owned by the manufacturer, i realize that videos put forth under the mfg channel will highlight certain things that are favorable to the company's products, etc.  i'm sure there are some slippages here and there regarding regulations on this relatively new youtube medium, but at the end of the day, for me, it's a no harm-no foul type of thing.  i prefer to see direct videos without regulatory stuff taking up half the time like you see on the drug and car ads: "this festool product may induce severe envy in others and may have side effects of extreme wallet loosening; use only as directed".  i like to think i'm past the age of gullibility and i tend to take just about everything with a grain of salt.  in fact i like to study human nature and laugh at what we all do, how we do it, etc.

i dug up the video in question and i didn't see anything disingenuous in it.  i know that if i didn't have the tool myself, i could go and test it for 30 days and see what's what.  apparently the situation was disclosed to you eventually about whatever form of compensation, so to me that would have been the end of that.  i don't believe there was any intent whatsoever to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.  i personally found it cool to see someone's shop and their tools and workflow--but that's my nature, you know--"what can i learn here?", as opposed to: "let's see what federal, state and local regulations is this little video breaking?". 

i personally think it's unhealthy to fixate on such trivial matters and hang unto anger over them for so long.  thanks for responding, but duuuude!  let's all go and build some stuff!

 

[windmill man]

This has been the best thread on here for ages , if you want to know why people shy away from here just read this rubbish.

Darcy I have sent back the key to the festool warehouse you lent me , thanks buddy

Some posters on this thread GET A LIFE , please  [big grin]

Just for the record Darcy has never made any bones about receiving the saw , mind you if that is what he got for 3 days work. It was a bum deal

Oh and read some of his post  if it's a t**d he calls it a t**d

 

[AlexThePalex]

Good thread.

Checks and balances.

Sometimes people need to be remembered not everything is always as they themselves see it.

In the mean time, I'm going to a coin collectors' forum and advice them they're better off with stamps.

I like stamps.  [tongue]

 

[Cheese]

In the mean time, I'm going to a coin collectors' forum and advice them they're better off with stamps.

I like stamps.  [tongue]

Funny...

 

[John H]

Not sure why certain people are getting 'bent out of shape'

Its common sense

If someone received some sort of compensation for an endorsement or made a video to be entered into some sort of contest or something - IT NEEDS TO BE DISCLOSED  Its the law! (and we are a nation built on the rule of law) It's called Truth in Advertising. 

Do the Endorsement Guides apply to social media?
Yes. Truth in advertising is important in all media, whether they have been around for decades (like, television and magazines) or are relatively new (like, blogs and social media).

It all goes back to this:
Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. She tells you it performs wonderfully and offers fantastic new features that nobody else has. Would that recommendation factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.

Now suppose the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Endorsement Guides.

Amazon routinely gives products to their top reviewers - its called the "vine" program and you will see at the start of each review that they are a vine reviewer
Also - Amazon indicates if they are a "verified owner" or not in a review - which in my opinion adds a little more weight to that opinion

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but if you were compensated in anyway - you need to make that fact clear

Why doesn't the FOG simply create a "group" for these people and have it displayed under the forum name similar to the RETAILER, FORUM MODERATOR or FESTOOL DEALER Badge?

 

[teocaf]

Now I'm kinda miffed...  How come my recent "Mercedes and Festool" thread didn't get as much traction as this thread?  I mean that MB ezine had EVERYTHING:  cool cars, Kate Upton, a lingerie buying guide...  oh yeah, and some Festools!

 

[jacko9]

I thought I would post a comment before this discussion is closed.  Back to the original question I have been a member here since April 2010 and a Festool owner since 2007.  I found this site because I had questions about my Domino joiner and I quickly found out how useful a forum could be.  I have over 2000 posts on here and I look at this forum almost every day and find a lot of useful discussions and some annoying fanboy comments - like get rid of your table saw and buy a track saw ;-)

I think that informative comments on competive products is fine as long as it doesn't get into a heated marketing debate.  I only have so much money I'm willing to spend on tools and machines and if I find a better product I go in that direction however, the reason I'm here is that Festool makes tools that work in my small shop and most of my purchases over the past several years have been Festool.

I'll read what others have to say and make my own informed decision on a purchase or technique.  I do wish that we had more discussions on member projects and complimentary tooling.  I haven't posted any project pictures lately and I'll blame that on old age and "golf".

Keep it civil and this forum will continue to be one of the best (and I do miss that personal touch that Shane provided on a daily basis).

Jack 

 

[Slartibartfass]

Note to Moderator:

Please close this pointless thread.....

 

[Davej]

Note to Moderator:

Please close this pointless thread.....

At last the voice of reason. This thread is gonna go round in circles and a certain person is getting boring with their harping on about boring regulations .
Dave

 

[Kev]

I'd say some people don't like/agree with the whole 'Festool can do no wrong' vibe that the forum has, and over compensate in their responses to posts.

I think some of it may be what I read over at other woodworking websites.  Paraphrasing: "I don't go to the FOG because its like going to a cult meeting, and that's not for me, I just like woodworking."

I agree with some of this commentary.  What turns me off most is the "if it's not Festool, it's junk" arguing that goes on.  For the record, I love my Festools.  I bought an MFT, Kapex, and RTS400 just in the last 3 months.  My decision to buy them were heavily influenced by BALANCED commentary here.  I emphasize BALANCED because fan boy posts are not helpful.

It's the FanBoys/Fanatics.  It is not that Festools are too expensive - they are not always the "Best" tool for the job and if you try to point that out, the FanBoys/Fanatics, paid shills, Festool Dealers/Employees,  etc come running...

How many projects do you see where someone has used a Domino when a biscuit cutter or even a simple screw would do the job - but the are desperately trying to rationalize their expensive purchase to themselves?

Kapex - people spend 3x the amount of a decent miter saw to buy a Kapex and when they get it - they are disappointed with the fit and finish (or the table isn't flat,etc) but if they dare same something about it or ask a question....

Totally 100percent agree with you there but your missing the main point, the fanboys as you call them, are inexperienced, generally old and bored, who believe that by buying an expensive well engineered tool will turn them in to cabinet makers and when it doesn't the either slag off the tool, as being badly engineered, or say nothing but praise for it because they feel embarressed for laying out all their money on something they cannot use. search the classifieds, full of tools used once.
It isn't just Festool these people crave, Canon photographic equipment , iPhones, iPads, and their latest obsession the Apple Watch.
all survive because of fanboys not because of the professionals.
I am sat waiting (yet again) for my transfer flight and I am surrounded by people, all old, playing on their iPhones and iPads, no Apple Watches though, maybe the Italians aren't as sad as the rest of the world or the Watch isn't available in Italy yet.

Once again we have a typical attack on the nature of people. If you have such an issues we people you are free to leave the planet ... or in the very least this forum.

Glad to see your personal issues aren't only aimed at being jealous of people with Festool products, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about people using Canon and Apple as well.

Plus this thing you have against old people. What's wrong with you? People get old.

 

[Stephen B]

I'd say some people don't like/agree with the whole 'Festool can do no wrong' vibe that the forum has, and over compensate in their responses to posts.

I think some of it may be what I read over at other woodworking websites.  Paraphrasing: "I don't go to the FOG because its like going to a cult meeting, and that's not for me, I just like woodworking."

I agree with some of this commentary.  What turns me off most is the "if it's not Festool, it's junk" arguing that goes on.  For the record, I love my Festools.  I bought an MFT, Kapex, and RTS400 just in the last 3 months.  My decision to buy them were heavily influenced by BALANCED commentary here.  I emphasize BALANCED because fan boy posts are not helpful.

It's the FanBoys/Fanatics.  It is not that Festools are too expensive - they are not always the "Best" tool for the job and if you try to point that out, the FanBoys/Fanatics, paid shills, Festool Dealers/Employees,  etc come running...

How many projects do you see where someone has used a Domino when a biscuit cutter or even a simple screw would do the job - but the are desperately trying to rationalize their expensive purchase to themselves?

Kapex - people spend 3x the amount of a decent miter saw to buy a Kapex and when they get it - they are disappointed with the fit and finish (or the table isn't flat,etc) but if they dare same something about it or ask a question....

Totally 100percent agree with you there but your missing the main point, the fanboys as you call them, are inexperienced, generally old and bored, who believe that by buying an expensive well engineered tool will turn them in to cabinet makers and when it doesn't the either slag off the tool, as being badly engineered, or say nothing but praise for it because they feel embarressed for laying out all their money on something they cannot use. search the classifieds, full of tools used once.
It isn't just Festool these people crave, Canon photographic equipment , iPhones, iPads, and their latest obsession the Apple Watch.
all survive because of fanboys not because of the professionals.
I am sat waiting (yet again) for my transfer flight and I am surrounded by people, all old, playing on their iPhones and iPads, no Apple Watches though, maybe the Italians aren't as sad as the rest of the world or the Watch isn't available in Italy yet.

Once again we have a typical attack on the nature of people. If you have such an issues we people you are free to leave the planet ... or in the very least this forum.

Glad to see your personal issues aren't only aimed at being jealous of people with Festool products, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about people using Canon and Apple as well.

Plus this thing you have against old people. What's wrong with you? People get old.

What do old people have?
Experience!

 

[teocaf]

you sure you have enough quotes there guys?!?  most of those entries were not all that interesting to read even the first time...

 

[AlexThePalex]

If someone received some sort of compensation for an endorsement or made a video to be entered into some sort of contest or something - IT NEEDS TO BE DISCLOSED  Its the law! (and we are a nation built on the rule of law) It's called Truth in Advertising. 

You'd think it needs to be disclosed in that particular video.

I don't think that law means to say that if you do one video for Festool you need to carry a sign around your neck for the rest of your life saying "I WAS PAID BY FESTOOL - ONCE!!!!".

 

[teocaf]

[member=20021]John H[/member]
very impressive use of bold characters to highlight infractions perceived and otherwise.  it all looks right---didn't actually read it, of course.  you would have to actually pay me to read all that fascinating legalese...and then you'd have to disclose it-- definitely not worth it...
I, for one, am voting that Festool send you a limited edition sphygmomanometer (in a systainer, or course) for your tireless work in exposing this critical oversight in their compliance procedures.

And by the way, I'm getting reports of someone over at sawmill creek who is doing nothing but polishing their unused lie-nielsons.  That simply cannot be allowed to continue unaddressed.  There's also a rumor that at this very moment someone at lumberjocks is posting a video review of a lee valley pencil flashlight without disclosing that it was provided to them gratis.  Go gettem' ! 

Andddd,  In before the lock...