The problem with Festool - poor instruction manuals

[rxe]

No, I'm not going to complain about the price, or the fact that buying these things is slightly more of an addiction than crack cocaine.  I'm going to complain about the instructions.

I am a hobbyist, so I'm not doing wood every day - the computer stuff pays for the wood stuff if you get my drift.  So I'm going to make a built-in for my son's bedroom, nothing particularly complex.  A ply structure at the back, with an oak frame on the front to look nice and hang the doors off.  It will have the 32mm holes in it for shelf placement. 

I go to my stack of tools, I know I need the OF1010 and 32-SYS and the little widgets that link it all together.  I put them all on the MFT and look at them.  Hmmmm.    Jigsaw puzzle.  I've left the instructions in the box, so I have a quick look - nothing useful, just "don't drag the tool round the garage by the power cord" in 17 languages. 

As a customer of one of the finest tool outfits in the world, what do I do to solve this problem?  I come here, to the FOG, and watch Hokeydokreg's primer on making built ins from start to finish.  [big grin]  Got it now, I understand the system again, off we go. 

So what am I asking for? 

- How about the FOGs greatest hits on a DVD in the box?    If Festool don't want Hokeydokreg as a front man, they could remake them, but I think he's great. 
- How about a folded A3 sheet with the key operations for the tool (in pictures) in the box.  You could leave it under the insert once you have read it, and always have it to refer to. 

 

[hrrb]

I absolutely have to agree with you. Lovely tools but crappy instruction manuals!

Some of the manuals that came with my Festool toys... [oops] tools...even looked as if it was a copy made from a copy made from a copy and so on - using a poor 1970's xerox. Really poor picture quality on top of being less than diminutive instructive.

FOG with all it's supplementary manuals, videos and generel discussions has really helped me getting started.

For my router I did a little copy/paste from various manuals, supplementary manuals and forum discussions into a Word document. Just a single page. Printed and laminated it and put it in the systainer. I'm also just a hobbyist so a brief instruction helps refreshing my memory and setting the correct speed etc. when I'm using the tool from time to time.

If I only had the time I'd do that with some of my other Festool (and non Festool) power tools also.

Kind regards
Henrik

 

[AlexThePalex]

So next time you buy a car ..... you want the manufacturer to include driving lessons?

I've read this complaint so many times here now. And I don't agree at all, it is up to yourself to know how to work with these things or else you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.

 

[Bob Marino]

I absolutely have to agree with you. Lovely tools but crappy instruction manuals!

Some of the manuals that came with my Festool toys... [oops] tools...even looked as if it was a copy made from a copy made from a copy and so on - using a poor 1970's xerox. Really poor picture quality on top of being less than diminutive instructive.

FOG with all it's supplementary manuals, videos and generel discussions has really helped me getting started.

For my router I did a little copy/paste from various manuals, supplementary manuals and forum discussions into a Word document. Just a single page. Printed and laminated it and put it in the systainer. I'm also just a hobbyist so a brief instruction helps refreshing my memory and setting the correct speed etc. when I'm using the tool from time to time.

If I only had the time I'd do that with some of my other Festool (and non Festool) power tools also.

Kind regards
Henrik

I would agree with Henrik, yes the basic Festool router are seriously lacking, but the manuals by Rick C, and the many tutorials and videos by Brice B, Kreg M, Paul Marcel and others, plus the many Utube videos available out there do more than fill the missing links in the original manuals. And the FOG has them all right here. And the quick responses by others here offering help is impresive.

Bob

 

[hrrb]

So next time you buy a car ..... you want the manufacturer to include driving lessons?

I've read this complaint so many times here now. And I don't agree at all, it is up to yourself to know how to work with these things or else you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.

No Alex, I dont expect driving lessons and that's not the issue here. I don't expect a full tutorial in the usage of a router including every woodworking project you could imagine...that would be similar to driving lessons.

But I would expect a car manual explaining some details about all the buttons on the dashboard, the necessary checkpoints under the motor hood, how to put in a new fuse etc. And that is what I use to get with my new car and what seems to be lacking with some of the Festool tools.

Lucky for you that you don't need that!  [wink]

And If you have read the complaint so many times...well...then there must be something about it!  [unsure]

Over and out, Henrik.

 

[greenMonster]

I think in general Festool will have to up its game as far as writing manuals, better marketing, better trained sales staff etc as a premium brand if they want to have market penetration in the US.

I have no doubt they'll continue to get increasing sales without such efforts, but are missing out on some good opportunities imo

 

[RDMuller]

This is certainly not a new frustration being expressed!

Question:  Are you willing to pay for 3rd party written manuals?  3rd party videos?

A little bit on my background.  I am retired from the pharmaceutical industry, continue to work as a full-time consultant in that industry and also have a videography company.

During my career, I wrote 23 books ---- all technical and were reviewed intensively by scientific peers, marketing, legal and regulatory.  I have directed the production of over 200 videos.  Many of the books were translated to other languages.  Some of the videos were published to DVD with 5 languages on them.  Production of anything on an international scale is no small challenge.

I have looked at the Festool documentation situation from a number of perspectives.  Last year I created 3 videos on using the TS55, parallel guides and extensions that have been referenced here on the FOG.  (Search Youtube for "RogerMuXX" to find these and others -- most of which do not apply to woodworking).  One of these was named the Training Video of 2010 by CabinetMaker/FDM magazine.  Doing these videos gave me alot of "personal jollies", lots of atta-boys, etc.  As if I don't have enough to do, I work part-time in a woodworking store.  While talking to a customer less than 3 weeks ago, he looked at me and said  "I recognize your voice --- you're the guy that does those videos on the guides for Festool".  Makes you feel good.

I actually did these 3 videos with a "giving back" to the community thought process.  But ----- that only takes you so far.  To make this really work, there has to be some sort of financial incentive ---  even if it is minimal.  The 3rd video in that series was on the parallel guide extensions.  Documentation that comes with these is minimal.  This video has had over 22,000 hits on YouTube.  If I had a dollar for each hit --- wow  --- dream on!  Even $.10 wouldn't be bad.

Another complication of trying to sell these items over the web is the "aftermarket sharing" that would be going on if these were put out in an open environment.  My thoughts here turn to something like the "Apple Store/Itunes" approach.  Small nuisance for the end user, but it does provide a means to an end in both a Windows and Mac environment.  Unfortunately these schemes can be broken by more sophisticated users -- usually not an audience like this, but  high school and college kids.

So --- bottom line  --- is the Festool community of users willing to pay something for these publications/videos?

Replies appreciated --- sorry if I hijacked this thread.  Personal email if you wish to reply outside this environment is rdmuller@hotmail.com

 

[Steve R]

I too think the manuals are a bit lacking. I think this because I put Festool on a very high pedestal. Therefor I hold Festool to a higher standard. I do find the supplemental manual to be of great help.

All I have to do is look around at other product I have and I find they are really bad manual. I remember working on some Rev-a-shelf and that some of their instructions made Ikea...instructions look like tomes of detail.

I'm betting all of us have used the images on the box of product we have purchased. Writing a manual is not an easy thing to do, and requires great skill.  Just one word make the difference. 

Example:
Make sure you insert the stops from the right side. 
Make sure you insert the stops from the correct side.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Sean7a]

Gents, it's been a Tool Nut standard practice, for about 1.5 years now, to ship out a supplemental manual written by Rick Christopherson for each and every Festool that ships out of this store where a manual has been written by Rick.  Just an fyi  [wink]

Also, if you'd and did not buy the tool here, no worries, I'll get it out to ya.  No postage either.  Just feeling oh so giving today.

 

[honeydoman]

Rex,

Thanks for the compliment !!!!   I agree Festool should include a DVD with most tools and not a corporate stale one. A good one like I do.

I have received hundreds of compliments on my seires and lots of emails of people now buying the tools due to my training and videos. In fact well over a hundred that I am personally aware off.

I do my videos cuz I love doing them and to help others and I make them fun. My videos views in less than one year is over 115,000

And when you buy a tool it should include decent instructions from basic on up

But that is what is great about the Internet and YouTube.  I am in Georgia USA and you way in the $&%€ over there in the uk. And I trained you on how to do it !!!!!  Awesome  

Thanks again I really appreciate it and you will see more videos coming soon !!!!

 

[AlexThePalex]

But I would expect a car manual explaining some details about all the buttons on the dashboard, the necessary checkpoints under the motor hood, how to put in a new fuse etc. And that is what I use to get with my new car and what seems to be lacking with some of the Festool tools.

That is not my experience. As I commented in another thread about this, Festool's manuals are basic, never a word too much, but they do cover all the basics. Every knob or function is mentioned. Do you have an example of where this isn't done?

And If you have read the complaint so many times...well...then there must be something about it!  [unsure]

Or people simply expect more than they are entitled to. That's a common ailment of people.

 

[mouppe]

I mentioned the DVD suggestion a couple of weeks ago in another thread- although I think it was more along the lines of a safety-related thread. The cost would be minimal, it would explain things much better than a written manual, and I bet more people would watch it than currently read the manual.

And yes, I know how to drive, but I still check the manual from time to time to see which type of oil I need, what the correct tyre pressure is, and how to switch off the bloody "reset tyre pressure indicator" alert (still haven't figured that one out...grrr.)

 

[rxe]

Interesting responses.  I think I can address some of the points with an example.

My OF1010 was the second Festool I bought.  The first was a C12 and bit set, and at that point I was hooked on the quality.  I wanted a small router for dovetailing, and the OF1010 fitted the bill.    So I bought it, and as a router it was very nice.  All the normal router-ry things, collets, an extration hood (after my Elu, that was an innovation).  So I routed away perfectly happily, never knowing half of what it was capable of.  I don't have time to go to shows or hang out at dealers, so it never occurred to me to use it for anything other than routing. 

Then I saw Hokeydokreg's vid.  Wow.  There was my router on a funny rail doing 32 mm holes with a sort of sled thing.  Holy crow!  I could make cupboards with adjustable shelves.  All I had to do was buy a perforated guide rail and at the LR32-SYS and I'd be able to do that too.  So I went out and bought them.  None of that is in the OF1010 instructions.

So I would be willing to pay for a decent book of "how to use the system" - think coffee table size, nice big pictures, would go in the rack next to the downstairs loo and I would read it, er, regularly.    However, I think Festool is missing sales of accessories, and could almost certainly construct a strong business case to deliver a proper system manual.      Heck, only yesterday did I learn that there was a right angle fence to go on the bottom of the 1010 to do edging.  How can I buy a product if I don't even know it exists? 

But that is what is great about the Internet and YouTube.  I am in Georgia USA and you way in the $&%€ over there in the uk. And I trained you on how to do it !!!!!  Awesome 

It is pretty cool, isn't it! 

 

[tiralie]

... the manuals by Rick C, and the many tutorials and videos by Brice B, Kreg M, Paul Marcel and others, plus the many Utube videos available out there do more than fill the missing links in the original manuals. And the FOG has them all right here. And the quick responses by others here offering help is impresive.

Bob

I think Rick C's manuals are great, and have definitely learned a lot from them but with all respect to him and anyone else who gets  paid by Festool to create instruction etc., I would be extremely disappointed if Festool pulled their support of this site over producing more documentation/paid instruction. While nothing is perfect, I have issue with the search function here, I can easily use Google to find exactly what I want.

Festool's commitment to this site, Rick C's documents is evidence in my mind that they are committed to educating their customers and user base.

There are not many companies that have a site similar to this one where users are allowed to openly criticize the product as well as laud it. I always think folks like Brice B, Kreg M, Paul Marcel and others are the best example of social media and the original intent of the internet at work.
Tim

 

[hrrb]

...Do you have an example of where this isn't done?

No, I'm not going to spend time on finding examples for you. I made my point and you made yours. We obviously disagree in what to put into manuals as basic informations.  [smile]

Once again and definitely over and out from this debate!

Kind regards
Henrik

 

[EWTHeckman]

Festool's manuals are basic, never a word too much, but they do cover all the basics. Every knob or function is mentioned. Do you have an example of where this isn't done?

Here's one:

I just got a TS 55. The manual mentions that there are other saw blades available, but doesn't mention what they are, only directing you to the web site. It minimally describes what the stock blade is and is not appropriate for ("wood and wood-like materials and plastics"), but does not describe when you should use a different kind of wood blade (such as ripping or "finish" cutting). It mentions that blades should have a cutting width between 2.2 mm and 3.0, but does not mention the effect of varying widths on the splinter guard.

I would think that accessories directly related to the TS 55 should be described in the manual. Especially if those accessories do not come with manuals of their own. This means blades, angle guides, additional stops, track connectors, etc. And yes, mention is made of the catalog and visiting the web site for more information. (Though I should point out that the USA web site does not currently state the thickness of the various blades available for the TS 55.) It does mention the MFT, the availability of other track lengths (in exactly 6 words), and "the extensive range of accessories".

One final example: The "Guide Jaws" (for setting how tightly the saw grips the guide rail) are mentioned, but the language is very vague, not telling you that they must be snug to get a straight cut; let alone telling you how to adjust them. (If they're too loose, the saw will wander on the track, leading to a wavy cut. If they're too tight, you will have trouble moving the saw.) I've already seen at least one post on this forum by someone who got burned by that lack of info in the manual.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I don't see the big deal about their manuals.

It is not that hard to figure out how something works.

 

[pugilato]

While they're at it, maybe a larger font? And perhaps better binding? or include a magnifying glass with each manual?

Seriously, using these tools is not rocket science, the instructions provided by Festool are not much better than others', and there is so much content on the internet by people who find ways to use the tools and are generous enough to share the information. And there is the FOG... If you're not sure which blade to buy for the TS55, just ask. Much more than is offered by DeWalt and the others.

 

[peter halle]

As a member here I am glad that this forum was started years ago to help fill in the informational voids. I am excited about all the various informational avenues that Festool USA utilizes  to offer information all over the web.

As a moderator I am proud of the growth of the forum and the expanded knowledge enhancing opportunities that are here from people all over the world.

Peter.  or was it Peter?

 

[EWTHeckman]

Not everyone has access to the Internet. (For example, my father doesn't have it at home.) And even then, most people probably don't find the FOG. And yes, it is a GREAT resource. But for many people, the manual is IT.

IMHO, the manually isn't terrible. In fact, I have a slightly higher opinion of it after writing that last posting, mostly because I had to look at the manual in detail. On the other hand, I do think it could be better.

IMHO, some of the things I mentioned should be fleshed out a bit more. For example, that there are other accessories not mentioned in the manual, can be so easily missed because it's only 6 words. Maybe part of that could be resolved by simply doing a little more formatting. I also think Festool should describe all the current accessories (at the time the manual is written) and how they interact with the tool. (In the case of the saw blades, that's probably only two to three lines.)

But there are some functional issues that are missing too. Things like describing how to snug the TS 55 to the track and the original poster's need for a description of how the pieces of the LS-32 system fit together. IMHO, those are genuine failings.

So let's see if I can balance that out. IMHO, the manual is about standard for the industry. Not much different in quality or detail than my DeWalt and Craftsman manuals, though the cover is better than most. It's decent, not terrible. But I do think there is room for improvement, especially since this is Festool we're talking about.

Of course, if forced to choose between getting more Festools on the market (such as the Carvex in the U.S.) and better manuals, I'll take the tools every time, especially since I have access to the FOG. But if Festool can do better on the manuals too, I certainly won't complain.