The Value of Work

[Vindingo]

A buddy of mine got a new job as a construction manager for some inexperienced, "I have a lot of money I'm going to build houses" contractor. Last week, he asked me if I could give him a hand with "something" and said, "my boss will pay you."  Without thinking, I said sure, no problem.

I get the call yesterday, asking if I could help him install some windows. 

"what kind of windows?"

"I don't know"

"In wood, steel, or masonry?"

"I don't know, but my boss said he can give you $100 a day, cash"

"uhh... do I need to bring my tools, or will I be standing there holding the window?"

"Well, I don't know how to install windows, so you would have to bring your tools..."

I said his boss was crazy if he thinks he can find someone with any experience to hang windows for $100/day (in the NY metro area) and he was a bit taken back.  I told him that I couldn't stop working on the cedar doors for that much money, and I was gonna have to pass.

I talk to another buddy today, and he says that the first guy is pissed at me for blowing him off, and that I was arrogant for turning down the work.   

I feel bad that I am not helping out a friend, but it isn't his company.  I'd do it for free, and teach him if it was his company.  The job is also in Newark, NJ (a crappy city), and I would be constantly worried about getting my tools stolen.       

Was I wrong?  I just feel like I value my time more than that, and it doesn't help that I know my friend will be making 3X as much watching me do the work.

I constantly struggle with pricing jobs, and attributing value to the things I do.  It's bad enough that I undervalue my own time, skill and experience, but I have gotten to a point where I needed to draw the line somewhere.

I feel the need to explain my rational to my friend, but fear it will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Brice Burrell]

You were a lot nicer than I would have been.  Even here in Pittsburgh with a much lower cost of living I would have laughed in his face at the $100 a day.

 

[jacko9]

Vinny,

I politely tell these people that I don't work at that rate for this kind of work.  If they want brain surgery from a doctor that works for $1.99/hour - good for them.

Jack

 

[duburban]

you were totally right and i'd stay very far away from a contracting company that doesn't own tools or know how to install windows...

my business mantra is now "set yourself up for success" and that situation is none of that!

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Vinny,

However you went about saying it, you did right!  Let your friend figure it out on his own.  He's obviously not too swift hooking up with a "construction crew" AND luring you in.  How can he manage something he knows very little or nothing about?

 

[jtparrothead]

You're a better man than I, I would have told him I can sit at home and starve to death, I live in Mississippi which is one of the lowest cost of living areas in the USA and I pay my "help" which doesn't bring any of their own tools (because they don't own any) and ride with me to the job site 80 bucks a day cash. The company owner is gonna learn really fast that you get what you pay for.

 

[ericbuggeln]

Vindingo, you should be the one whos insulted. My landscaper buddy pays guys off the street more then that. If you agreed to $100, it would only be time before they asked you to do it for $90 or even less. Maybe not all builders, but most have no loyalty, so forget about building something long lasting, Eric

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I just had a good customer try and pull some crap like that with me.

Acting like he was broke on his million dollar a year salary and that I somehow owe him for "giving" me a bunch of work over the last two years.

We are no longer on speaking terms, for the duration.  He has a hard time understanding other people also pay me to make stuff for them.

 

[Troll]

In a similar situation many years ago my response when the derisory  day-rate money was mentioned was "And how many times a day are you paying that....".

Troll

 

[GhostFist]

for the.life of.me I can't understand why carpentry skills are completely under valued by the gen pop. this is a bloody house that people live in. Do they think any boob can just slap one together for nothing? You get what you pay for. you want a quality job you pay a quality rate. really, with your skills, you do us all a favour by not under valuing what we do. for that I thank you.

 

[ScotF]

Yeah...I think it is crazy that everyone tries to get everything for nothing...I am a hobbiest and do some of my own projects, but I have no issue paying top dollar for good work.  It takes a lot of skill to do what folks in the trades do and a lot of expenses for insurance, tools, tooling, supplies, gas, bidding on work, bookkeeping, etc... and let's face it, it is a lot of hard work on top of it.  Some people think that all of that stuff should just be free or included in some low price point or that the projects appear easier than they really are. 

Scot 

 

[live4ever]

If you don't value your own time, certainly nobody else will.  I say you did the right thing to value your time like that, and your friend will just have to get over the fact you weren't the pushover he was hoping you were. 

 

[Kev]

Vinny, with your quality of work here in Oz, you wouldn't get out of bed for an offer under $500 a day.

This isn't a friend ... it's as plain as the sun is shining that he was trying to take advantage of you and the attitude afterwards compounds it.

Don't lose any sleep buddy  [smile]

 

[AlexThePalex]

$100 a day is an insultingly low offer for a professional. Here in Holland the hourly prices in this line of work lay around €35 per hour. I've read posts of American members here in the past mentioning they charged $35-45 per hour.  

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I should have mentioned before, if you make your "day" 2-3 hours, then go for it.

 

[Johncarlo]

How many windows and is it new construction? Depending on the size of window you would be looking at about $15 to $30 a window, install only at a piece workers price. There is no art in install, only on the finish part. Like Ken said if you can get in and out in a few hours why not, more money for more Festools.

 

[Vindingo]

After reading the responses, I feel like less of a jerk for not helping him. 

I guess what it comes down to is that I am not really helping him, but his cheapskate boss. 

Last night, I thought that I would call and offer to do it anyway... not anymore. 

As far as details, I am sure it would be an 8hr day and it is new construction.  The lack of detail made me leery of the situation as well.     

 

[Peter James]

I think there is a difference between "helping out" and "charity". If it was your friend's house and he needed a hand i'm sure you would have been there and not charged a dime. That is helping out.  He seemed to be looking for charity. You investing your time into someone else's work. While the offer to pay is nice, it's obviously not up to par in this part of the country. Maybe you can explain to him that you're going rate (even for friends) is much higher than what was offered. It is tough times and there are plenty of people down on their luck who will take $100 an hour. Your friend should probably try to find someone like that. Another possibility - he could have oversold himself to his boss and may be in a jam. You can offer to advise and guide, but that is obviously up to you. Just my $.02.....

 

[Sparktrician]

In my opinion, this guy really isn't a friend if he insults your intelligence and skills with an "offer" like he made.  As others have noted, a company that can't even specify what type of windows are to be installed in what sort of framing is on very shaky ground at best.  It would bother me to learn that the construction manager doesn't even have the most basic information on the project available to share with the subs, nor has the knowledge of the "how-to" to get things done right.  I certainly wouldn't want my name associated with that company or that specific project.  As Ken noted, if your day is 2-3 hours, the fee offered might be worth it.  You need a better class of friends.  

 

[Wonderwino]

Another angle on the "$100/day CASH" offer is that he is actually replacing an $8/hr laborer, by the time the employer pays social Security tax, work comp & etc.  Besides insulting the value of your work, he is cheating the broke government out of a few dollars in taxes!  (Should you report him?  ???)

Vinnie, having seen the thread on your parents house reno, you should charge at least $50/hour just to show up and teach them how to do it.  If you use consumables with your tools, that should be extra.  I think you did right turning him down, but maybe you should have countered that a man with your skills is worth $X/hr/day and that is what you would do the job for.  I think your buddy's boss needs some education.  [smile]