I can appreciate the sentiments here. I provided a "Swiftian" proposal ("An Honest Proposal", Jonathan Swift). I truly didn't mean to say that we shouldn't share ideas. Of course we should. What I have the problem with is that in many cases the sharing seems to go just one way.
John,
This is the quote from you that prompted my response and I stand by my response about finding that attitude abhorrent. We think differently, obviously. And I did respond fully aware of the precarious position I, as a dealer, am placing myself in so doing.
[JD] I can appreciate your taking a stand and weighing in on this. However, I'm a bit perplexed as to why you would place yourself in this precarious position, versus keeping mum. I don't want to dissuade you from replying, I'm just perplexed as to why you would even run the risk of losing business opportunities. [JD]
"As bad and un-community-ish as this sounds, I would advise people not to provide fixes or ideas for solving these problems until we start receiving some reasonable compensation for them. And a tape measure or t-shirt is not reasonable compensation.
If Festool is so proud of their Research and Development, and they charge us for it, then allow them to earn it. Don't give it to them. If we want to be a community, lets stop the one way game of "everybody get's paid, except for you"."
In my opinion, the saw tipping is a big problem. Festool sets up the brand to be "Faster. Easier. Smarter." They advertise all these awesome cuts you can make with the saw and how easy it is to make bevel cuts. They advertise how well engineered and thought out their tools are. Great. But we have 2 problems with the TS saws that should be simple to fix.
1. The depth gauge doesn't account for the depth of the rail. This could be an easy fix. You provide 2 scales, one with the depth on the rail, and one with the depth off the rail. This is not a big deal.
Good point.
2. The saw falls off the track when tilted at 45 degrees. I don't think it should fall off, and if it just so happens to do that with someone, it has the potential to damage the saw. Am I the only one who sees that as a problem? I think Festool should work to correct this problem on its next iteration of TS saws. I don't think the saws from the other manufacturers fall off the rails. I could be wrong though.
Again, I never saw this as a problem, apparently it can be, but I do see Craig's idea as a good one.
Charimon came up with an elegant solution to this problem. Solutions that Festool should have thought of or corrected before the saw was released. But they didn't. Charimon thought of something that many people would readily buy if Festool produced it. Was he asking for compensation for his idea? No, not explicitly, but implicitly by "jokingly" requesting a tool. I think Festool should have taken the opportunity to capitalize on this, got an example of what Charimon produced, and sent him a tool. Even if Charimon was asking for a $495 Rotex, it doesn't cost Festool $495. My guess is that there is a 30% markup between the manufacturer and the dealer. So it would have cost Festool maybe $350. Pretty cheap when it comes to product development. Did they jump on the opportunity to take this and run with it? Nope, at least not that we know of, and Charimon was not compensated for his excellent idea. Will we see an improvement to the rail stop in the future? Perhaps. Will Charimon be compensated if that product arrives and his ideas were used for it? Probably not.
I don't have a clue as to compensation or no compensation, but I would repeat my earlier response:"IMHO, the beauty of the FOG (and most similar forums) is not only the vast knowledge freely disseminated, but also the community atmosphere generated and maintained, not by edict, but by the downright decency of most people willing to share their knowledge and experiences just to help another member."
[JD] I don't dispute that. I appreciate that. Perhaps this part is being missed in my delivery method.[JD]
Bob, you mentioned some other points regarding the service issue that I had when I ordered my MFT. I'm going to provide you some unsolicited advice. Perhaps you should keep some of your philosophies to yourself. I know you are really well thought of here, and I did order something from you. I received it very quickly, with no damage. However, regarding my MFT problems (I did NOT order the MFT from Bob), Bob and I had some personal communications where you more or less told me that if you shipped an item and it were damaged you would work to get me the part quickly, but it was too bad for me in regards to the inconvenience (the dealer I purchased the MFT from was NEGLIGENT in shipping the item. The box had a big hole in it to start with, which the dealer stuffed their fliers into). Although it would be well within my right to send the item back at your expense, and hence cost you $250 or so, the best I could get for doing YOU the favor of saving YOU $250 would be to get a t-shirt, and only if I complained enough. So to be more specific, if I cooperate with you, you win and I lose. If I choose not to cooperate with you, we both lose, but you are the bigger loser in this game. I believe they call this "Prisoner's dilemma" in game theory. The way that we both win in a Prisoner's dilemma is to cooperate. I find it ironic that you mention that the spirit of the board is to share, but you do not share yourself.
Say what?
John, you were the one posting about the MFT profile damage and from what you have described the dealer didn't properly package the table; which actually triggered a response from a couple of dealers on the frustrations of shipping large/heavy/bulky items, even when properly packaged. However you are wrong that it doesn't cost the dealer anything in these types of cases; many times the dealer doesn't get compensated by UPS, and just eats the cost. It's not a win for the dealer; either financially or emotionally. Any dealer worth his salt isn't happy if his customer gets something in less than pristine condition. Understand, here I am referring to this particualr case you mentioned (damaged MFT profile) whereby the "fix" - sending out a new profile, essentially restores the MFT to new. Yes, is it an inconvenience for the customer to have to deal with - absolutely. Would a customer get a new MFT if he sustained a profile damage? - yes of course, if he so asked. But in the few times this has occured, my customers were ok with getting a new profile and replacing the damaged one. Maybe I travel in more sanctified circles and am blessed with more understanding customers, but I try to take care of all of them as quickly and best as I can.
[JD] (Before I make my point, I want to reiterate that Bob WAS NOT the dealer I am referring to with the damaged profile.) I acknowledge that many of the dealers shared that information freely, and I appreciate that. I also acknowledge that sending out a new profile makes the item like new again, after I repair it. And additionally, I acknowledge that the effort and cost associated with getting a new profile is not "free" to the dealer. However, while you imply that there is no "winner", you are looking at things in terms of black and white. No, you don't "win" as much as you could have when there is damage. You have to eat some cost, lessening your "win". But you not looking at the alternative. You have the potential to "lose", and "lose" big if the customer exercises the option to send the item back and ask for a replacement. It is well within the customer's right to do that. So again, this sets up either a win/lose situation, or a lose/lose situation. I don't think you would knowingly set up a situation like this, hence you and other dealers here double check the integrity of the shipments or improve the packaging to prevent this. What I'm pointing out in both the product damage situation and the original topic of the post is why do we as consumers need to have win/lose or lose/lose relationships with the manufacturers and dealers? Why can't we have win/win relationships? Back to the dealer/damage example, the dealer *could* recognize that the purchaser is trying to create a win/win situation and assist them with it. Everybody wins. And depending on how the transaction was handled, the dealer probably wins the most in the long term since they cement a long term relationship with the client. Win/lose or lose/lose relationships only last a transaction or two. In regards to the product improvement suggestion, a win/win relationship may spark the sharing of even more beneficial ideas, obtained relatively cheaply by the manufacturer, at a compensation that makes the inventor happy. [JD]
This is a specific example of what I was saying in earlier posts about "everyone gets paid, but you".
Again, citing this particular instance, probably paying for another profile and the needed paperwork isn't what I would call cost free; it is the cost of doing buisness.
[JD] I didn't say it was cost free. I would even venture a guess that after paying for another profile, shipping it and doing the paperwork, you would still come out ahead. Not as far as you would have had there been no damage, but still ahead. Please stop ignoring the fact that the repair alternative is cheaper than the replacement alternative. The dealer gets the benefit in the repair alternative. The dealer loses big in the replacement alternative. [JD]
And I want to thank you for that Bob, because I will not order from a dealer that wants to play win/lose games with their customers.
Have never played any such thing; it's only by your definition.
[JD] You mentioned that you run in more "sanctified" circles with more understanding customers. You have some customers that worship you, so perhaps you do. Also, its possible that this worship has obscured any potential win/lose or lose/lose propositions. I guess customers who want win/win situations are less glorious in your eyes. [JD]
I know you wouldn't want me as a customer, so at least the feeling is mutual.
I'll try an get over it.
[JD] I'm saddened at the cavalier attitude. You may know that I am not a tradesman, and that I am a hobbyist. I may be a rich hobbyist. I may not be. I may have a wide circle of hobbyists friends interested in Festools that I advice. I may not have any friends. While it is unclear what "value" my long term relationship is to a dealer, I would hope that that a dealer wouldn't expose themselves to a loss of that relationship with such a cavalier attitude. I see you added "nor as a neighbor" to your earlier post. That's too bad. I live down the street from you. I guess I won't wave anymore when I drive by. [JD]
Bob
[/i]Festool USA was mentioned in Bob's reply. I called Festool USA parts and asked about my damaged MFT profile. They sent one out the next day. No questions asked. Shane even followed up with them (which the dealer should have done), and replied here. Great service! Please don't even bring them back into the equation, Bob.
Festool was brought in as in "they did take care of it".
[JD] Okay, I acknowledge this. [JD]
And as a follow-up, the dealer I ordered from DID decide that it was in both our best interests to cooperate. Although they were slow, they made a rational win/win business decision.
