Time for a new planer, but which one?

[Birdhunter]

I surface most of the wood that I work with. I run a Powermatic jointer and a Powermatic planer, both with helical heads. Both are relatively quiet and I get a surface that needs only light sanding. The jointer is 8" and the planer is about 15" (not positive about that). I've had both for years and have not had to rotate the cutters. I cut a lot of oak and other hard woods. They both produce a lot of debris. I run a 2HP cyclone.

 

[rvieceli]

Fixed the link:
https://shelixheads.com/SHELIX_for_delta_15_inch_Planer_(DC-380)/

 

[Cheese]

Fixed the link:
https://shelixheads.com/SHELIX_for_delta_15_inch_Planer_(DC-380)/

Thanks Ron...what was the issue?

 

[rvieceli]

This thread made me look at prices again.  [eek]

Last year in July, I added a new Powermatic 20 inch planer with a Byrd head to the shop. I could not find anything on the used market that was acceptable.

I paid $4300 for it. That exact same planer is now $6000. Unreal.

Ron

 

[rvieceli]

Forum software was chopping off the closing parentheses from the link. Added a back slash and it left it on.

Ron

 

[ScotF]

A number of the video and text reviews of the Hammer combo machines have been less than kind.  I do wonder what the real world experience of people with them has been , so thanks for the comments. 

Has anyone regretted the transition to combo machines from separates?

I take the advice on helical heads.  It seems the consensus is to avoid the straight knives.

I have three Hammer machines: A3-31 combo (7 years), N4400 bandsaw (12 years), and K3 slider (5 years). As far as I am concerned, these are simply fantastic machines. Never missed a beat, powerful, and solidly built. I really do not aspire to anything more expensive. And I'm a pretty serious amateur of 30+ years building furniture.

In regard to the A3-31, the silent helical head is just that, and the finish is first class. This is a compact, fully featured jointer-planer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

+1

I have had my AD3-31 for probably 14 -15 years? It was before they moved to one table and the new cutter - I still use straight knives. It produces a perfect finish on all woods and I have sent through thousands of board feet of lumber through it - birds eye maple, figured hard and soft maple, oak, walnut, pine, etc... The only thing I have had to replace (or need to replace) is the start capacitor. A $15 part...no big deal. I do not think you can go wrong. They are having a holiday sale right now.

 

[Oilers]

I appreciate people sharing their experiences. Lots of people satisfied with stuff they bought 7+ years ago. 

Any experience with the recent Hammer products?  I’ve spoken with dealers in recent days, and my local shops stopped selling the Hammer products because of major issues with the cast iron and service for the products. 

As someone above said, I’m wanting to do this once and make the best informed decision I can, knowing that I might get a lemon (or a great copy of something). 

I’d consider the hammer D41.  Which is a planer only (my preference).

I seem to be down to the Laguna (do I pick 16 or 20, I’m thinking 16 for space/size/practicality/work I do) or the Hammer, which I haven’t seen in person and don’t have any local dealer for.

 

[Peter Kelly]

I've got an FS 41e myself. Very happy with it.

 

[Oilers]

I've got an FS 41e myself. Very happy with it.

I saw that video when doing research.  Thanks for making it and sharing your thoughts. 

I’d be interested in your follow up commentary.  And whether you wish you’d gotten the segmented cutter head.  It seems the segmented head might have helped with your dust collection issues. 

 

[cpw]

I bought an FS41e, and I also had to upgrade my dust collection.  I had a 1HP delta with 4" flex duct, and it just didn't work.  The chips can be very big and stringy and clog it up.  A 3HP Oneida V-3000 with hard pipe and a 6" flex at the end works great. 

I'm very happy with the machine.  I do like the ease of changing the Tersa knives, and the finish is great.  I would maybe want an insert head only to reduce noise; but that isn't something I'll actually change since the machine is likely to be the last jointer or planer I buy.

 

[Oilers]

I bought an FS41e, and I also had to upgrade my dust collection.  I had a 1HP delta with 4" flex duct, and it just didn't work.  The chips can be very big and stringy and clog it up.  A 3HP Oneida V-3000 with hard pipe and a 6" flex at the end works great. 

I'm very happy with the machine.  I do like the ease of changing the Tersa knives, and the finish is great.  I would maybe want an insert head only to reduce noise; but that isn't something I'll actually change since the machine is likely to be the last jointer or planer I buy.

I do have a 3HP dust collector.  It is a better machine than my planer, really.  Never had an issue with clogging.  So I have that part of the equation covered. 

Also, interesting to know about your experience with the Tersa knives.  I assume you have to change them with the same regularity as the standard knives, they’re just easier to switch? 

Are the tersa knvies cheaper?

 

[smorgasbord]

Also, interesting to know about your experience with the Tersa knives.  I assume you have to change them with the same regularity as the standard knives, they’re just easier to switch? 

Are the tersa knvies cheaper?

Here's a video showing how quickly Tersa knives are changed:

In terms of cost, depends on your application and time-value of money. The blades are double-sided, so you get two edges per knife. However, you don't resharpen them. They come in different materials - Chrome Steel, HSS, M+, and Carbide. The Chrome Steel are actually ground with a different angle since they're intended for softwoods. And again, I find that for big runs, I'll have either second set or keep track of which edge is which in order to have a fresh edge for the final passes, which is something no other system can do as easily/quickly.

That said, from what I hear about segmented cutterheads, I'd be tempted to go that route next time.

 

[Oilers]

What a fantastic reply….  I missed this when it was first posted.  That stair setup you have for moving in is quite the rig.  Well done by you.  That’s about what I’d have to do in order to fro this myself…. My problem is , the stairs are a left turn from the back door.

More importantly … I’m really interested in your experience with the wing addition/removal.  I’m sorry to hear that you don’t find it quite right.  That’s been my worry. 

I have a Minimax FS41 combination machine that I moved into the basement by myself. I’m fortunate enough that it is a straight in and down move. The tables were removed then reinstalled and aligned in the basement. Built a dolly for the machine and a track system on the stairs and rolled it off the truck using it as the anchor. Yes, I read that straps/rigging is not an option but just showing an idea.

It has a Tersa head which I like and blade changes are quick, as already stated.

If I had the room I would buy separate machines. Seems like it is always setup as the opposite function from the one I want to use. It only takes a minute to change over but I still find myself annoyed when I can’t just walk up and use the machine.

If I had to do it over, I’d attempt to move the machine into the basement without taking off the tables. Probably would need to reinforce the steps to do that though. Reinstalling and realigning is a challenge. Especially the jointer tables. I’ve done it several times and still doubt whether they are quite right.

Shane

 

[Peter Kelly]

I've got an FS 41e myself. Very happy with it.

I saw that video when doing research.  Thanks for making it and sharing your thoughts. 

I’d be interested in your follow up commentary.  And whether you wish you’d gotten the segmented cutter head.  It seems the segmented head might have helped with your dust collection issues.

Sorry, that FS30 unpacking video was produced by a guy in Montreal that I've followed for some years, not me. I've got the larger FS 41e version of it in my shop. No regrets on the machine other than the blade guard, wouldn't trade the Tersa system for anything, it's been great.

[attachimg=1]

 

[shanegrilah]

There are times when I’m running wood through the jointer it seems like the cuts are slightly tapered from one end to the other. I haven’t checked if my gut feeling is true or gone back to check the table alignment because it hasn’t effected the final outcome of my projects. I was a tool designer for 20 years so may be applying metal machining tolerances unfairly to a piece of woodworking equipment.

Regarding the table alignment, first, the infeed and outfeed tables need to be parallel to one another in 2 directions. They also need to be parallel to the cutter head.

The tables pivot (for planing) and slide up/down (for jointer depth of cut) on shafts that sit in saddles on the machine frame and are held down with caps screws. Opposite from the shaft there is a handle with a cam in the end which when rotated hooks under the head of a carriage bolt which pulls the table down against two jack screws on the under side of the table. The shafts need to be shimmed and the jack screws need to be adjusted to get the tables and cutter all parallel. I’m glad I didn’t count the number of iterations of loosen/shim/adjust/check. Because of the length of the shaft and the distance the jack screws are apart compared to the length of the table, small changes can make a big change at the opposite end of the table.

My method of alignment was to used two lengths of .009” music wire tensioned in a frame. Music wire is resting on four precision ground dowels on the infeed and outfeed ends of the tables. A fifth dowel is used to check the gap to the wire or movement of the wire near the cutter head. Cheap bluetooth portable microscope connected to mobile phone allows my old eyes to see the gap or movement easily.

Also, prior to the FS41, I owned a Laguna jointer/planer with a helical carbide cutter head. Never held adjustment and when planing the surface finish was unacceptable; lots of little scallops. Tried a bunch of things to fix it without success. Way too much sanding for my tastes. Off of the jointer the finish was very smooth. The Laguna was somewhere in the 2005-2007 vintage so maybe their cutter heads have improved but it is the reason I suggested that you run some samples through any machine you may be thinking of purchasing from them. I still own it because I can’t bring myself to sell that boat anchor to anyone. It makes a good paint stripper though.

Shane

 

[cpw]

Also, interesting to know about your experience with the Tersa knives.  I assume you have to change them with the same regularity as the standard knives, they’re just easier to switch? 

Are the tersa knvies cheaper?

The Tersa knives have different costs depending on what kind of steel alloy you buy, they aren't cheap.  For the 4 knife 410mm machines:

M+ is about $60:https://tersaknives.com/products/m42?variant=14070421254

Carbide would be over $400, I've just stuck with M+ and Chrome Steel instead.

But if you get a nick or have them dull, they swap out in like 60 seconds for each knife.  The big thing is you don't need to set them like you would with a regular gibbed straight knife.  You insert them, turn the machine on and they self align to the table.

 

[Peter Kelly]

You also get 2 edges per knife. Take them out and flip them over when they get dull.

 

[cpw]

You also get 2 edges per knife. Take them out and flip them over when they get dull.

I also mark the used sides with a sharpie.  Since as a hobbiest I don't need to change them that often and that makes it easy to know that I've already decided it was used up.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

For what it's worth, I have the Hammer A3-41 with the Silent Power head and have been happy with it, in the context of use in a one-person, relatively low volume professional shop. My understanding is that the Silent Power head that goes into the Hammer machines is the same as what goes into the Felder and Format4 machines, so you're not losing anything there going with the Hammer.

That being said, I'm going to order my next machine with a TERSA head, probably a AD-941...... 

 

[MikeGE]

I have the Minimax FS30 Genius, which is the same width as the FS30 Classic but with shorter in and outfeed tables.  I chose the "G" over the "C" because I could just fit the G down the two 90-degree turns in my basement stairs without removing the tables. 

My machine has the 3-knife Tersa cutterhead and I was not interested on the Xylent cutterhead, mainly because it added about €800 to the cost of the machine and about six months to the delivery time (the Tersa version was in stock).  I have yet to see a professional shop in Germany with anything other than Tersa cutterheads on the jointers or planers. 

I might be missing something, but I don't understand the desire for a quiet machine.  I always wear hearing protection when my dust collection system is running, so I don't care if my shop machines come with a trombone, bass cello, and kettle drum ensemble.  I won't hear the noise and neither will anyone in my house or neighborhood.