Tool Selection Advice

[bnew10]

Hello,

I am in the process of getting a small shop up and running, and was looking to get a bit of advice from those here at FOG. I have found discussions involving Festool in other forums can quickly become toxic and less informative. I hope you all can provide some insight. My apologies if this is the wrong forum for this post.

I am interested in the TS55 and its ability to do the job of few different saws. I would like to get something that would be able to replace a table saw and miter saw, but wanted to see if the TS55 was the best option available or if something like the Makita track saw could do what the TS55 does, at a much cheaper price point. I understand that at some point a table saw may be needed, but it seems like I could avoid one for quite some time with the TS55?

I will be redoing our kitchen in the spring (cabinets/countertops), have plans on building a small deck in the backyard, and short of fly fishing and skiing, found woodworking to be one of the most enjoyable hobbies I have experienced. I am still relatively young, with young children and our first home, so I would like a tool that has the versatility to perform a wide variety of tasks, but do not want to spend this kind of money if there is something that would work just as well for a cheaper cost. I am just a hobbyist and by no means a professional, and I do realize that much of Festool's product line is aimed at professional carpenters. Am I crazy for even considering this saw?  I know for cabinet making and decks, it seems perfect. I guess I am wondering how practical the saw would be for more general woodworking? I understand the price point is certainly not considered cheap, but if I could avoid having to purchase a table saw and miter saw that softens the blow of the cost. Everything I have read and watched concerning the saw seems to indicate a very fine edge when cutting and the versatility to perform a wide variety of cuts. How would the HK55 compare to the TS55 in overall performance and versatility? I read one post on here from someone explaining their decisions to go with the HK55 - which was insightful and helpful - but there was not much said about the TS55.

If any of you all could take a moment to let me know if you think the TS55 is a nice option, or if the HK55 would be able to do the same jobs/task just as well. Also, is there another saw that you would suggest more so than the TS55 or HK55, like the Makita track saw?

Thank you for your time.

Brent

 

[Birdhunter]

You pose excellent questions and are wise to gather information before spending a lot of money.

You will find some on this forum who advocate a track saw in lieu of a table saw exclusively. I have both a TS55 and a large Sawstop table saw. I find there is an overlap in what they can do, but each excels in certain areas. I think each does certain jobs with a higher degree of safety.

A cabinet type table saw takes up a lot of space even on a moveable base and requires a large volume powerful dust collector. A shop vac doesn't do the job. A job site contractor saw is an alternative and a shop vac will do an ok job. There is a big power difference that affects cutting thicker boards. Each brand has advocates. I like Sawstop because of its quality and its unique safety feature. Sawstop makes 3 different size saws from the really big Industrial model to a fold up contractor saw.

I looked at the HK55 and didn't buy it. If you did mainly framing, it would be a great option. If you don't buy a table saw, I'd buy the TS55.

I find the Festool TS55 to have far better dust collection than the other brands I've owned and is of excellent quality. It's great for cutting up plywood sheets.

In your position, I'd buy the Sawstop contractor saw and the TS55. Again, I am a strong advocate of both Sawstop and Festool. I've owned other brands and strongly favor those brands.

One other tool I would highly recommend is a Festool Domino. That tool is a real game changer, especially for cabinet work.

 

[bnew10]

You pose excellent questions and are wise to gather information before spending a lot of money.

You will find some on this forum who advocate a track saw in lieu of a table saw exclusively. I have both a TS55 and a large Sawstop table saw. I find there is an overlap in what they can do, but each excels in certain areas. I think each does certain jobs with a higher degree of safety.

A cabinet type table saw takes up a lot of space even on a moveable base and requires a large volume powerful dust collector. A shop vac doesn't do the job. A job site contractor saw is an alternative and a shop vac will do an ok job. There is a big power difference that affects cutting thicker boards. Each brand has advocates. I like Sawstop because of its quality and its unique safety feature. Sawstop makes 3 different size saws from the really big Industrial model to a fold up contractor saw.

I looked at the HK55 and didn't buy it. If you did mainly framing, it would be a great option. If you don't buy a table saw, I'd buy the TS55.

I find the Festool TS55 to have far better dust collection than the other brands I've owned and is of excellent quality. It's great for cutting up plywood sheets.

In your position, I'd buy the Sawstop contractor saw and the TS55. Again, I am a strong advocate of both Sawstop and Festool. I've owned other brands and strongly favor those brands.

One other tool I would highly recommend is a Festool Domino. That tool is a real game changer, especially for cabinet work.

Thank you so much for you detailed response!

I understand a table saw like you mentioned would be quite helpful with certain projects - much like the cabinets - but is it within reason that I could finish a project like the cabinets using the TS55 as the only saw for straight and accurate cuts? I understand many more tools are needed for a project of that scope, but I am mainly concerned with the cutting aspect.

Thanks again!

 

[Slider613]

You certainly can get straight cuts with a TS55 on a rail, it excels at certain things, like rips on sheet goods, but it's challenging to rip narrower material.

It can work for crosscits, but it's pretty slow unless you have the MFT setup.

Personally, I'd rather have a table saw and a Miter Saw than just a Tracksaw. I did recently ditch the Miter Saw, as I've found that the Festool TS paired with a MFT works well for me, and I use the table Saw with a Miter gauge or sled for certain cross cuts that I find challenging or slow with the MFT/Tracksaw.

 

[Jozsef Kozma]

If you want one thing to do at all
There will be limitations
If you want to build kitchen cabinets and a deck
The track saw will do as a saw (with attachments)
Kreg jig with a quality drill
would bee cheapest-way for cabinet assembly

 

[bnew10]

You certainly can get straight cuts with a TS55 on a rail, it excels at certain things, like rips on sheet goods, but it's challenging to rip narrower material.

It can work for crosscits, but it's pretty slow unless you have the MFT setup.

Personally, I'd rather have a table saw and a Miter Saw than just a Tracksaw. I did recently ditch the Miter Saw, as I've found that the Festool TS paired with a MFT works well for me, and I use the table Saw with a Miter gauge or sled for certain cross cuts that I find challenging or slow with the MFT/Tracksaw.

Thank you, I appreciate your response.

I just was intrigued by the idea of just the TS55, as space is also an issue for me. I will not have a true dedicated space - or at least a large area - where I can work, so the idea of being able to hold off on the table saw was going to help with my area management.

I am beginning to see how quickly one can fall into the whole Festool system!

 

[bnew10]

If you want one thing to do at all
There will be limitations
If you want to build kitchen cabinets and a deck
The track saw will do as a saw (with attachments)
Kreg jig with a quality drill
would bee cheapest-way for cabinet assembly

Thank you! I will look into that Jig. Appreciate the response

 

[rst]

I use a 55, 75, HKC, and started my track saw adventure with a Makita, which I still own.  I work with wood, plastics, steel, and aluminum.  While I primarily use my tools commercially, I've built my own house and am familiar (Jerk of all Trades) with most trades.  the only reason I haven't trying welding is that one it would mean more tools and I own most know to modern man (and a lot that most men are not familiar with).  If I were to start from scratch I would buy the 75, yes it is heavier than the others, but like my 8 1/4" SKilsaw, it will cut anything the blade depth will accommodate.  While I have two MFTs, I would start with two of the Kreg tables. Good luck and happy learning, remember, it's the journey, not the destination. Oh, buy the Domino 500 as soon as you can afford it.

 

[RKA]

Tools within the same family (saws) often have a lot of overlap.  But often times one tool excels over the other in terms of set up and precision.  And while you can make the other tools do the same job, if you're wasting wood and time trying to get the results you want, it's no longer enjoyable.  There is also the common theme of when to move the tool to the material vs. the material to the tool.  The former is suitable for large pieces of stock.  The later is preferable for small pieces.  My prediction is you'll eventually end up with 2 of the 3 saws you brought up (maybe even all three - oh the horror!). 

A track saw can do a lot but it can be fussy.  What does that mean?  Thin rips require some other accessory to plant the track, plus clamps to keep it where you set it.  Those clamps will hang below your work table, but you'll need a little lead in or run off on either end of the piece you're cutting.  This becomes an irritation if I want to cut many identical pieces.  Bevels are sensitive you how you apply pressure to lead the saw through the cut. If you want a 3 foot mitered corner on a cabinet, practice first so you have the hang of it.  With a table saw, set the fence and bevel, push the stock, done.  Rinse and repeat all day long and you've got your parts for the face frames.  But, cutting cabinet carcasses is what the track saw will excel at.  That's large pieces of 3/4" material in repeatable sizes with finish quality cuts on plywood.  Those can get unwieldy on a table saw, much easier to move the saw over the material. 

If you expand your woodworking projects to include hardwoods and stock more than 1.5", a table saw with the proper blade will make quick work of that, a track saw (even with the right blade) may struggle with the cuts. 

A track saw can cut decking material.  Most cuts might be at 90, 45 or 22.5 degrees.  You'll need some way to index the track repeatably to those angles (HK has that built into the track, but that is less of a finish quality do-all tool, so I would overlook that saw).  You should also plan to use scrap under the rail for each cut for additional support since most 2x material is narrow.  It's just an extra step, but that's the difference using one tool vs. another.  A miter saw is a little easier because the tool has a fixed stop built in (fence) and an angle gauge for the blade with fixed stops. 

Trimming out a house with a tracksaw - that's not what a tracksaw was designed to do.  I know you didn't mention it, but you'll find it on your list eventually.  Thin stock with an irregular face isn't ideal for setting a track onto.  Adjusting for slightly out of square corners is not something you'll do with a track saw.  Miter saw, easy enough.  Crown molding, you have two options on a miter saw, cut it flat on the base using the miter and bevel settings or nested between the base and fence.  Either way is easy enough, none of it will happen with a track saw. 

My preference here, don't rule out the miter saw.  You may not need to purchase it right now, but somewhere down the line you'll decide it's helpful. 

A table saw would be my first preference, but size and dust collection are often factors.  The track saw can fill that niche, but you may eventually concede and get a small table saw for ripping down pieces.  Plan on a zero clearance insert and plywood blade if you're building out kitchen cabinets.  Learn about table saw safety if you want to keep your fingers.  Most power tools can do serious damage if you're not careful, this is the one that bites most often.

So if a table saw isn't in the cards right now, yes, the tracksaw is incredibly versatile, but a bit fussy for certain operations.  It's compact, portable and has great dust collection compared to most table saws.  In terms of which one, a Makita is a good option (and I think someone mentioned it's more powerful?) worth considering.  I haven't used one, but I've heard nothing but good things.  Festool's saw is equally capable and there are other options as well.  Let your budget guide you and let the 2nd (or 3rd) saw break the budget.  [smile]

 

[Birdhunter]

Regardless of which way you go, a set of really accurate squares is an absolute requirement. Cheap squares get cheap results. Both Starrett and Woodpeckers make excellent squares. I'd start with a Starrett 12" combination square and a Woodpeckers 1281 square. I'd also add a Woodpeckers framing square if you can find one.

 

[amt]

Kitchen cabinets are a big job, much bigger than it seems.  What kind of doors will you make?  How will you do edge banding?  Will the shelves be adjustable?

I would recommend you seriously consider a RTA (ready to assemble) cabinet, like Ikea's.  Perhaps Ikea is a bad word here, but I have found certain products to be of excellent quality.  I have a kitchen full of their cabinets for 10 years, and not a single thing has broken.

As for the deck, all you may need is a circular saw, for about $100-$200 for a decent quality one.  With a simple jig, a circular saw can be used like a track saw as well. 

 

[Cheese]

Here's a photo of my latest project...cabinets for the upstairs loft that will fit in the knee wall. There will be 4 of them and each is 30" wide x 45" tall, everything has been done with a TSC 55, DF 500 and an OF 1010. Interestingly enough, the tasks I used the 1010 for could have been easily handled by the TSC 55 if that's all I had.

So yes, with youth and enthusiasm on your side, it can be done.

 

[UncleJoe]

Lots of great advice already given. I am a hobby guy. In the last few months I have build all new kitchen cabinets with bead board panel doors, a toy box/blanket chest for my grandson and I am just finishing a Walnut twin bed with drawers underneath.

My friends and family have been amazed at the high quality work I am now putting out. The tools made a huge difference. I got rid of my cheap table saw a couple of years ago and not I use the Festool track saw, a decent compound miter saw with a good blade for fine cutting of miters and a Bosch router in an Incra router table and fence and a Festool 1400 router a Kreg jig and a Domino.

If I had to "lighten the load" I could get by without the Domino and also have one less router but my day job has been good to me so I had the cash to get what I wanted. Oh and I did just pick up a 13 inch planer that makes working with the black walnut a real love affair.

I am now building heirloom furniture that my family really loves. I was not sure I could work at this level but the Festool tools gave me the ability to achieve square and very accurate cuts and that gave me more confidence. Once you master that the rest is easier. There is a wealth of good info on the interwebby thing and that youtube has some good stuff also to help you over the rough spots.

I spent way too much time "saving money" on tools. Sometimes I simply had no choice but now that I have the good stuff there is no going back.

Good luck on your projects. 

 

[bnew10]

I use a 55, 75, HKC, and started my track saw adventure with a Makita, which I still own.  I work with wood, plastics, steel, and aluminum.  While I primarily use my tools commercially, I've built my own house and am familiar (Jerk of all Trades) with most trades.  the only reason I haven't trying welding is that one it would mean more tools and I own most know to modern man (and a lot that most men are not familiar with).  If I were to start from scratch I would buy the 75, yes it is heavier than the others, but like my 8 1/4" SKilsaw, it will cut anything the blade depth will accommodate.  While I have two MFTs, I would start with two of the Kreg tables. Good luck and happy learning, remember, it's the journey, not the destination. Oh, buy the Domino 500 as soon as you can afford it.

Thank you.

Do you feel the Makita can perform the same cuts to a comparable quality as your TS55?

Thank you for the encouragement. I am in no rush and maybe a bit obsessive with the planning part, but I am looking forward to getting started.

 

[bnew10]

Tools within the same family (saws) often have a lot of overlap.  But often times one tool excels over the other in terms of set up and precision.  And while you can make the other tools do the same job, if you're wasting wood and time trying to get the results you want, it's no longer enjoyable.  There is also the common theme of when to move the tool to the material vs. the material to the tool.  The former is suitable for large pieces of stock.  The later is preferable for small pieces.  My prediction is you'll eventually end up with 2 of the 3 saws you brought up (maybe even all three - oh the horror!). 

A track saw can do a lot but it can be fussy.  What does that mean?  Thin rips require some other accessory to plant the track, plus clamps to keep it where you set it.  Those clamps will hang below your work table, but you'll need a little lead in or run off on either end of the piece you're cutting.  This becomes an irritation if I want to cut many identical pieces.  Bevels are sensitive you how you apply pressure to lead the saw through the cut. If you want a 3 foot mitered corner on a cabinet, practice first so you have the hang of it.  With a table saw, set the fence and bevel, push the stock, done.  Rinse and repeat all day long and you've got your parts for the face frames.  But, cutting cabinet carcasses is what the track saw will excel at.  That's large pieces of 3/4" material in repeatable sizes with finish quality cuts on plywood.  Those can get unwieldy on a table saw, much easier to move the saw over the material. 

If you expand your woodworking projects to include hardwoods and stock more than 1.5", a table saw with the proper blade will make quick work of that, a track saw (even with the right blade) may struggle with the cuts. 

A track saw can cut decking material.  Most cuts might be at 90, 45 or 22.5 degrees.  You'll need some way to index the track repeatably to those angles (HK has that built into the track, but that is less of a finish quality do-all tool, so I would overlook that saw).  You should also plan to use scrap under the rail for each cut for additional support since most 2x material is narrow.  It's just an extra step, but that's the difference using one tool vs. another.  A miter saw is a little easier because the tool has a fixed stop built in (fence) and an angle gauge for the blade with fixed stops. 

Trimming out a house with a tracksaw - that's not what a tracksaw was designed to do.  I know you didn't mention it, but you'll find it on your list eventually.  Thin stock with an irregular face isn't ideal for setting a track onto.  Adjusting for slightly out of square corners is not something you'll do with a track saw.  Miter saw, easy enough.  Crown molding, you have two options on a miter saw, cut it flat on the base using the miter and bevel settings or nested between the base and fence.  Either way is easy enough, none of it will happen with a track saw. 

My preference here, don't rule out the miter saw.  You may not need to purchase it right now, but somewhere down the line you'll decide it's helpful. 

A table saw would be my first preference, but size and dust collection are often factors.  The track saw can fill that niche, but you may eventually concede and get a small table saw for ripping down pieces.  Plan on a zero clearance insert and plywood blade if you're building out kitchen cabinets.  Learn about table saw safety if you want to keep your fingers.  Most power tools can do serious damage if you're not careful, this is the one that bites most often.

So if a table saw isn't in the cards right now, yes, the tracksaw is incredibly versatile, but a bit fussy for certain operations.  It's compact, portable and has great dust collection compared to most table saws.  In terms of which one, a Makita is a good option (and I think someone mentioned it's more powerful?) worth considering.  I haven't used one, but I've heard nothing but good things.  Festool's saw is equally capable and there are other options as well.  Let your budget guide you and let the 2nd (or 3rd) saw break the budget.  [smile]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. It is very helpful.

I have read some reviewers stating that they no longer even use or need their table or miter saw after getting a feel for their track saw system. Hyperbole aside, it got me thinking if I could get away with that for some time? I know I would be limited in much that I can do, but the intriguing part was just the versatility of cuts and the footprint of the saw.

It is amazing how quickly your "list" can grow once you own a home. So many things I could eventually do given enough time and an increased skill set. Hopefully, in time...

 

[bnew10]

Regardless of which way you go, a set of really accurate squares is an absolute requirement. Cheap squares get cheap results. Both Starrett and Woodpeckers make excellent squares. I'd start with a Starrett 12" combination square and a Woodpeckers 1281 square. I'd also add a Woodpeckers framing square if you can find one.

Thank you for the recommendations! I have been looking into a proper square, so this is quite helpful.

 

[Motown]

Hi Brent, welcome to the FOG.

There have been lots of great suggestions already and I would echo the comment that doing a kitchen is a BIG job. So with that said, a couple of thoughts/questions for you:

- Can you borrow some tools from some buddies or family? It's more likely that they will be non-Festool but perhaps you can try a few and see if they'll work for you. If you know someone who has Festool....even better.
- You've mentioned that you'll have a small shop: I'd suggest building some cabinets for the shop first or anywhere else in the house that won't have the pressure that comes along with getting a kitchen done quickly. When I started, I built cabinets for the shop/garage and made a bunch of mistakes and adjustments before it really counted. This allowed me to fine tune my work flow and process.

If you go Festool I think you could be realistically looking at a TS55 plus an extra track to do 8' cuts, MFT work table, OF 1400 Router, a CT Vacuum, Festool Sanders and a bunch of accessories. The Domino is life changing but probably overkill for a first-time project like this. The Kreg jig is great as well and Kreg also makes a jig to help you with install cabinet drawers.

Ultimately we all have our own preferences but I think you'll get some great info here on the FOG (yes, we are biased) but hopefully it will help you figure out what works best for you.

 

[bnew10]

Kitchen cabinets are a big job, much bigger than it seems.  What kind of doors will you make?  How will you do edge banding?  Will the shelves be adjustable?

I would recommend you seriously consider a RTA (ready to assemble) cabinet, like Ikea's.  Perhaps Ikea is a bad word here, but I have found certain products to be of excellent quality.  I have a kitchen full of their cabinets for 10 years, and not a single thing has broken.

As for the deck, all you may need is a circular saw, for about $100-$200 for a decent quality one.  With a simple jig, a circular saw can be used like a track saw as well.

Thank you for the response.

I appreciate the word of caution with the kitchen. Certainly would not want to tear everything out and realize I was way in over my head. I have read through some plans and guides, and it seems it is within my current skill set. While certainly there is no substitute for experience, I have to start somewhere and the idea of building my own seems doable.

As for design, I am nowhere near ready to answer those questions. Our current laminate counter tops are starting to fail in certain areas, and the cabinetry is original to the house and a bit dated. We are still several months away from even beginning to get started, but I have been browsing through some plans. Do you happen to have a good source you would recommend for basic cabinetry?

 

[gsdvorak]

1st- Welcome to the FOG!

I'm not sure if I'm reading too deep into your post, but I'm guessing you are budget conscious, or at least your budget is not unlimited.  Therefore, I'm keeping that in mind with my recommendations.

First, a little background:  I worked for a cabinet company for 11 years- I left there 20 years ago but I still dream of some of the equipment we had there, but obviously a different world of tools in a production environment.  I now build furniture as a part-time business, but I remember the cabinet construction methods quite well so I wanted to build all the cabinets for our new home we built 2 years ago, and did so in my old shop.  Here are the primary tools used with comments:

-TS55- used this to breakdown all the sheet goods.  First started with two rails connected, but even after carefully setting up with a straight edge, I would sometimes get out of square cuts within the 8' length, so I got the long rail- problem solved.  I was then able to get more precise cuts with the plywood using the track saw than if I would use the table saw.  Cross-cuts were done using the MFT- I went a long time thinking I didn't need an MFT, but worked wonderfully during my cabinet build.  I have used my TS55 for deck builds as well, although I hear the HK55 or HKC55 work much better for this application.

-Cabinet Saw- used to rip hardwood (red oak) for face frame stiles/rails, drawer fronts, etc.  Much easier to cut 1-1/2" stiles/rails on a table saw than anything else IMHO.  As mentioned in an earlier post- safety first!  Use push sticks or get a set of the GRR-RIPPERs.  The only hardwood I cut with the TS55 was the hardwood edge banding used on the cabinet shelves, but that was with the help of parallel guides- you can cut the edge banding on the table saw too.  With some extension tables, you can get by with a portable saw instead of cabinet saw- many on the FOG have had good luck with a Dewalt model.  Get a good dado blade and use the table saw for end panel dadoes.

- Kreg Jig- used this for assembly of all face frames.  Great jig- makes this task easy.  Tip:  this jig is a pain without dust collection- make sure to use the hood that comes with the jig and hook up to a vac.  Also, use a comfortable cordless drill- your wrist will thank you after all the pocket holes and screws.

- LR32 with OF 1010 router- makes shelf pins a breeze.  Yes, it seems expensive for what you get, but pin holes are spot-on accurate and, when you think of all the pin holes for adjustable shelving in a kitchen, 4 bathrooms, and a bar, I cannot imagine the time savings as well.

- CT Vac- an absolute must for me (I no longer sneeze constantly in the shop).  It's not only a health thing for me- not as much sawdust to clean up at the end of the day.

-Miter saw- even though the MFT is great for cross-cutting wider pieces such as end panels and shelves, a miter saw works best for face frame parts and the like.  I have the Kapex that I purchased a few years ago, but there are many other miter saws that are less expensive that can do this operation for cabinets, too, and get great results.  If you cannot spring for a miter saw, build a table saw sled.  It won't be quite as efficient, but will get the job done and safely.

-Sanders- sanding is my least favorite operation but I understand it is also one of the most important.  I used to use other brands of sanders, but once I purchased my first Festool sander, I switched everything over.  If you can only afford a couple sanders, the two I recommend for cabinets are ETS-150/3 and RS-2E, then buy the rest of the Festool line when you can afford them.  If you can spring for a third one, I'd recommend ETS-125 (or latest version) 5" model- much easier to use on face frames and smaller parts/edging.  And don't forget to use a Syslite to spot defects that need sanding.  Or, better yet, the new inspection light to be released in a month looks to be a great option too.

There are other power tools that will make life easier as well (domino, oscillating spindle sander, etc) but already have quite a list above.  Hand tools? Good square, accurate tape measure, sharp chisels, dead blow hammer are all must-haves- don't over-look them.  Best of luck with your purchases and upcoming builds- lots of fun ahead of you! 

Regards,
Gerald

 

[bnew10]

Here's a photo of my latest project...cabinets for the upstairs loft that will fit in the knee wall. There will be 4 of them and each is 30" wide x 45" tall, everything has been done with a TSC 55, DF 500 and an OF 1010. Interestingly enough, the tasks I used the 1010 for could have been easily handled by the TSC 55 if that's all I had.

So yes, with youth and enthusiasm on your side, it can be done.

Thank you for the photo! While I am sure your skill is far more refined than my own, this does nothing but instill some confidence for my future cabinets.

I am glad to hear it was certainly possible to complete the major parts with mainly that saw, and this is exactly the information I was seeking when posting on FOG. I hope to see the finished project once completed and installed, looks great!