Torsion box shelf-all wood or reinforced with steel

I think Kevin's idea is fantastic. You don't have to bring that flat screen back forward much at all to have it really support even a shelf half that thickness. Maybe a third of the depth of the TV section? If they are willing to build this in the first place, they'll want a good way to show off how thin their TV is. It's the simplest idea, although they are all good.

JMB, I'm fully stealing yours.  ;D
 
Tim,

I know that your customers don't want any supports, but would it be possible to reinforce the top of the cabinet with a piece of steel channel (like uni-strut) hidden by the wood front.  Then make the top divider out of two pieces glued together with a hollow vertical channel thru it.  Then thread a braided steel cable or threaded rod thru that and thru the shelf below with the attachment under the shelf above the tv.  You might want / need to recess a piece of metal into the bottom of the shelf to spread the forces over a slightly larger area.  If you then made the shelf lip slightly larger, then the connection won't be visible to the owners.  If you went with threaded rod, you could cover that with a hollow rod and paint that aspect (or the braided cable) to match the color of the encyclopedias.  You could use other ideas suggested for the connection of the shelf to the rear of the cabinet.

Just a thought spurred on by a suspended garage shelving system I did and Eli's avatar.

Peter

Edited to insert uni-strut images  because some viewers may not be familiar with the term.

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Eli said:
I think Kevin's idea is fantastic. You don't have to bring that flat screen back forward much at all to have it really support even a shelf half that thickness. Maybe a third of the depth of the TV section? If they are willing to build this in the first place, they'll want a good way to show off how thin their TV is. It's the simplest idea, although they are all good.

JMB, I'm fully stealing yours.  ;D

Patent Pending!

I agree I like Kevins Idea I didnt think of that maybe if I was actually building it and had the TV I would of thought you dont want the TV set soo far back but just from this thread it never crossed my mind bringing the back forward which would support the above shelve!   Well an average flat screen TV WITH normal wall bracket which would allow you to remove the TV from an inset would bring your TV no more than 180mm/ 7'' at MAX from the wall to the face of the TV so your shelve which is 14 1/2 inch deep would only hang over 71/2 inch.  Ofcourse you can get Tv's much slimmer but im just saying the Max of an avarage flat screen and standard wall bracket  you properly would get a bracket and a TV which would only be about 3-4inch or less [eek] from wall to the face of the TV but it would have to be them super slim O-LEDs TV's and a crap slim bracket with no adjustment but super flat which are a pain in the arse!    

JMB
 
jmbfestool said:
Pete!  I think your tape measure looks a little bit worn!  Not very Festool like!

JMB

Just one that was handy in the storage shed.  It does have metric!  [big grin]  And it has been used.  [eek]
 
Made heaps of torsion boxes over the years and I would have no issue at all in a 60” span with no bracing. 25mm thick would be 2 @ .5 veneer, 2 @ 3mm MDF and 8 @18mm x 10mm pine ribs running length wise and spaced every 33mm and blocked every 150mm, and that would leave room for a 20mm solid timber edge for the veneer to be pressed over. Very, very strong. 

Putting in metal bracing defeats the purpose and in my opinion weaken the structure. You may as well save all the effort and just use solid and rout a groove and slip a groove and screw some angle iron in.
 
Torsion boxes are great at increasing the stiffness to weight ratio compared to solid wood
but they are not stiffer than solid wood. At one inch thick you'll need to pay attention to
grain direction to get the most stiffness and maybe use a stiffer species and cover it with
the typical veneer. Increasing the thickness of the shelf whether solid or constructed is
the best way to increase stiffness.

Wood doesn't come straight, we spend time making it straight and you could make it
bowed up but when it is pushed down it will exert outward pressure on the sides.

Still 60" is twice as long as is recommended for ordinary shelves.
Encyclopedias may require something like JMB suggested.

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A steel tube is a steel torsion box ready made, but it too can and will bend.
A feature of steel is that if you bend it enough it will stay bent yet still retain elasticity.
You could make a laminated shelf (tortion box style) with one or two pre-bent steel tubes
(3/4" or 7/8") in the front half and straight wood strips in the back half. Use epoxy.

When un-clamped the front of the shelf will spring up and ideally the full load of books
will be required to bend it straight. Even if the cabinet back is only 1/4" be sure to fasten
it to the back of the shelf. That will greatly increase stiffness but it won't be adequate to
keep the front straight unless you take some of the extraordinary measures that
have been suggested.

Your client needs to understand that at 60" a simple straight shelf when loaded will sag and
an engineered shelf when unloaded will be crowned but will straighten under load.
 
Michael Kellough said:
Torsion boxes are great at increasing the stiffness to weight ratio compared to solid wood
but they are not stiffer than solid wood. At one inch thick you'll need to pay attention to
grain direction to get the most stiffness and maybe use a stiffer species and cover it with
the typical veneer.

Interested to see how you make your torsions as i disagree with that. You say you will need to pay attention to grain direction, so how thick is the top and bottom substrate you would use with a 1" top? The rigid strength comes from the ribs so grain direction isnt an issue.
 
Tezzer said:
Michael Kellough said:
Torsion boxes are great at increasing the stiffness to weight ratio compared to solid wood
but they are not stiffer than solid wood. At one inch thick you'll need to pay attention to
grain direction to get the most stiffness and maybe use a stiffer species and cover it with
the typical veneer.

Interested to see how you make your torsions as i disagree with that. You say you will need to pay attention to grain direction, so how thick is the top and bottom substrate you would use with a 1" top? The rigid strength comes from the ribs so grain direction isnt an issue.

Tezzer I meant that grain direction can make a difference (depending on species) in the stiffness of a solid wood shelf.
It would be particularly noticeable in a shelf 1" or thinner. Consider a wood with very distinct difference between early growth
and late growth like douglas fir or southern yellow pine. If a board of one of these species is quarter sawn it will be stiffer
as a shelf than a plain sawn board would be.

I do disagree that the strength of a torsion box comes from the ribs. Every analysis I've seen says the majority of the stiffness
comes from the compression resistance of one skin and the tensile strength of the opposite skin (alternating depending on load direction).
That is why hollow core door skins held apart by a scant matrix of corrugated cardboard have any stiffness at all. Still, the addition of
well chosen ribs would greatly improve the strength of that low end torsion box. In the case of ribs, long strips that are much wider
than their thickness, plain sawn would be better.

One manufacturer of stress skin panels for house construction (molded torsion boxes) actually uses vertical grain ribs. The "ribs"
(more like cut down cedar shakes) work as posts within the box and have no strength as ribs at all in the out of the box sense but
because the voids between the ribs are filled with urethane foam (the expanding foam is also the glue that holds everything together)
the finished panel when removed from the form is incredibly strong.
 
Tim Raleigh said:
I have had a request by a client to build the following cabinet in Oak. He wants me to build it in solid Oak but that is another discussion.
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The second shelf from the top is 60" long by 14 1/2" deep and 1" think. He doesn't want to have a divider or support in it. Below it is a cabins for a flat screen TV. The client has told me he will be putting encyclopedias on this shelf. At over 30lbs. a foot solid oak, and veneered (mdf, chipboard) will sag a considerable amount.

I believe a torsion box is the best solution, however I am not certain a wooden core torsion box will be sufficiently rigid enough and have designed a steel core (see exploded view drawing below) to support this weight.

Any comments, questions or suggestions?
Thanks.
Tim

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If you haven't already come to grips with this, take a quick look at the book "More woodworkers essential facts, formulas and shortcuts" by ken horner (isbn  1-892836-21-1)
He has an entire chapter on torsion boxes, with simple to understand and calculate formulas.  Quickest and easiest info I've seen describing what will and won't work, and how to get best get the result you want.

Twenty minutes with this chapter should get you what you need .

G

 
coffeebean said:
take a quick look at the book "More woodworkers essential facts, formulas and shortcuts" by ken horner (isbn  1-892836-21-1)
He has an entire chapter on torsion boxes, with simple to understand and calculate formulas.  Quickest and easiest info I've seen describing what will and won't work, and how to get best get the result you want.

Twenty minutes with this chapter should get you what you need .

G

G:
Thanks,  Brilliant!. I will check it out. What's your opinion of his other book the first in the series?
When I start to work on this project I will post the results.
Thanks again.

Tim
 
Mixed feelings I find the content of either book to range from trivial and obvious to essential... I'd strongly recommend your public library or a bookstore browse to see if they cover your needs/interests.

I've obtained both from time to time from the public library, and am thinking it would probably worth owning them.

But, I know I will have mixed feelings... Sorta' like owning a Fein multimaster.

G
 
How about making a NOMEX (resin impregnated cardboard) composite torsion box? There was a FWW article about it quite a few years ago.

You'd have to do vacuum bagging for the best assembly though.

This is not the article form the magazine, can't fine it right now:

FWW on nomex

Here's a link to a buddy of mine who uses it to make "double top" (but hollow!) guitar tops:

http://www.dunwellguitars.com/DoubleTops/DoubleTop.htm

The 1/8" top can hold 160 lbs of strings, so I'm sure you could do 500 lbs with a 3/4" shelf!
 
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