TS60 feed rate and saw marks

[mavbo]

The TS60 is my first powered saw, so I'm learning about track saws and powered saws in general. I've been making some test cuts on the MFT/3 and am finding that a slow and steady feed rate is causing saw marks when crosscutting hardwood using the stock 42T blade. On the other hand, pushing the saw through quickly results in little to no saw marks on the end grain, but a rougher overall texture and more splintering on the rail-side top of the cut and especially on the exit of the cut against the fence. I've been pushing the saw past the fence and raising the blade only once it is clear of the work piece and am using the highest speed setting.

I'm having a hard time finding information on feed rate and cut quality for crosscutting hardwoods with the track saws, so does anyone have some wisdom to share? My guide rail on the MFT/3 does have some play in the pin so I have a slop stop on order, could it just be an issue of excess vibration? Should I get another 42T blade? The amount of saw marks left has been pretty inconsistent.

I've attached some images, two cuts in 2x4 cherry and two cuts in 1x2 hard maple. The first in each set is from pushing the saw through quickly, the second is from pushing the saw through slowly.

 

[Cheese]

Interestingly enough, I've never examined the cross cuts I made, I've only examined the rip cuts I made. The cross cuts never seemed to be problematic it was always the rip cuts that were the problem.

As far as cross cuts go, these seem pretty rough.
Do they have a texture? Do they feel rough? Photographs can be deceptive in evaluating the cut quality.

Are they rough feeling or just rough looking...there is a difference.

 

[mavbo]

Interestingly enough, I've never examined the cross cuts I made, I've only examined the rip cuts I made. The cross cuts never seemed to be problematic it was always the rip cuts that were the problem.

As far as cross cuts go, these seem pretty rough.
Do they have a texture? Do they feel rough? Photographs can be deceptive in evaluating the cut quality.

Are they rough feeling or just rough looking...there is a difference.

The cuts made quickly feel rough when using the pad of a finger, but smooth-ish when using a finger nail.
The cuts made slowly are the opposite, they feel smooth to a finger, but the saw mark ridges can be felt when using a finger nail

 

[luvmytoolz]

The marks look to me like there is a bit of play as you alluded to. The stock blade should give a very reasonable cut.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Does the TS60 have the same sort of speed control earlier Festool saws have? That is, there is a growling sound as the speed control cuts power on and off rapidly trying to maintain a steady speed when the load is low?

I’m guessing it does and that is the reason you have extraneous marks when you feed slowly and little or none when you feed quickly.

In my experience the growling sound is accompanied by unwanted vibrations in the blade and a worse quality cut.

To avoid the growling/vibration you have to push the saw hard enough that the speed control sends power to the motor continuously. Unfortunately this reduces the fineness of the cut but it’s usually for the best.

I still use my old ATF55 sometimes because the speed control is flaky and sometimes it will run full speed regardless of how slowly I push. Then I get the smoothest cuts ever from a Festool saw.

 

[bobtskutter]

Are you plunging the saw through the work piece, like a miter saw?
Or are you plunging the saw before the work piece and then sliding it through?
Have you tightened the cam locks on the saw base to make sure the saw is snug against the rib in the guide rail?

I have a TS75 and find the saw can rock on the ride rail, which will cause the blade to angle into the cut - like your pictures appear to show.  The saw slides along the two green strips on the rail, there is nothing under the saw next to the splinter guard, if you push DOWN too hard you can make the saw tip very slightly.

Have you got the rail supported properly so it doesn't bend and flex as you're cutting?  That looks like a narrow piece of stock to me.

I also find that broken pieces from my chewed up cutting board can cause the blade to make those marks.

Keep practicing.

Regards
Bob

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Without some kind of backing on the far side of the cut, you are always going to get tear out.
Second, I suspect that this a far more about technique than the saw itself. Meaning that with any saw, you would see the same results.
We need the answers to bob's questions above to go any further.
Also, as mentioned, these are rather small pieces, much more suited to a miter saw. It's not that you can't do it with a track saw, but the track needs to be supported better. Building a fixture that does that will help you in this endeavor.

 

[Birdhunter]

My guess is that the saw is canted on the rail and not running parallel to the rail. You can force the saw to cant left or right by how you push the saw through the cut. I’d check how straight the saw sits on the rail. If it’s off, you can get really ugly cuts. Also, make sure you push the saw through the wood so no left or right pressure is applied. Left or right pressure also can produce ugly cuts.

 

[Cheese]

Thinking about what Birdhunter just mentioned, maybe there's too much toe-in or toe-out on the blade? Sedge uses a business card at the rear of the blade for setting toe.

 

[Birdhunter]

Forgot to add that most of the Festool track saws have adjustments for aligning the daw with the rail and making sure the saw doesn’t rock left and right on the track.I do not own the 60 so not sure.

 

[mavbo]

Does the TS60 have the same sort of speed control earlier Festool saws have? That is, there is a growling sound as the speed control cuts power on and off rapidly trying to maintain a steady speed when the load is low?

I’m guessing it does and that is the reason you have extraneous marks when you feed slowly and little or none when you feed quickly.

In my experience the growling sound is accompanied by unwanted vibrations in the blade and a worse quality cut.

To avoid the growling/vibration you have to push the saw hard enough that the speed control sends power to the motor continuously. Unfortunately this reduces the fineness of the cut but it’s usually for the best.

I still use my old ATF55 sometimes because the speed control is flaky and sometimes it will run full speed regardless of how slowly I push. Then I get the smoothest cuts ever from a Festool saw.

I'm not sure if this has changed with the new motor, but when pushing the saw slowly I did it such that there was no resistance felt from the work piece.

Are you plunging the saw through the work piece, like a miter saw?
Or are you plunging the saw before the work piece and then sliding it through?
Have you tightened the cam locks on the saw base to make sure the saw is snug against the rib in the guide rail?

I have a TS75 and find the saw can rock on the ride rail, which will cause the blade to angle into the cut - like your pictures appear to show.  The saw slides along the two green strips on the rail, there is nothing under the saw next to the splinter guard, if you push DOWN too hard you can make the saw tip very slightly.

Have you got the rail supported properly so it doesn't bend and flex as you're cutting?  That looks like a narrow piece of stock to me.

I also find that broken pieces from my chewed up cutting board can cause the blade to make those marks.

Keep practicing.

Regards
Bob

I am plunging before the work piece and sliding all the way through so the blade doesn't catch the work piece when retracting the blade. I tightened the cam locks until the saw couldn't slide then backed them off slightly until it did. I did use a piece of the same thickness underneath to support the rail and the work piece was also clamped to the MFT. I noticed that the base of the saw opposite from the blade does lift up from the rail easier than I thought it would, which from my understanding is expected. I'll try holding that side of the saw down against the rail like you're supposed to when making beveled cuts to see if that helps.

I found Sedge's video on alignment/setting toe so will check the blade for that against some ply. Thank you all for the suggestions. In terms of what I should be aiming for, it sounds like saw marks are not to be expected given the correct alignment/blade/technique? I'm assuming I shouldn't be expecting finish-ready endgrain from these cross cuts? I just want to make sure I have my expectations set correctly since I've only ever used a hand saw and shooting board for crosscutting pieces.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Certainly the plate should be adjusted to minimize slack on the rail but even with slack that would not explain the consistent difference in scoring depending on feed rate. The results are consistent with blade vibration and only show up when pushing slowly. Which is when the speed control system is most active.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Forgot to add that most of the Festool track saws have adjustments for aligning the daw with the rail and making sure the saw doesn’t rock left and right on the track.I do not own the 60 so not sure.

It has exactly the same mechanism underneath, for tightening the saw to the track, as the TS55
The "toe" adjustment is the easiest yet. Both ends have screws that are accessed from the top, big and bold, easy to see what they are there for.

 

[gharel]

Looks to me like the burn marks are just from going way way too slow. At that point it's just burnishing the surface. About what speed were you going? I always go essentially as fast as the saw wants to go with moderate pressure

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

[bobtskutter]

[member=80195]mavbo[/member]

I noticed that the base of the saw opposite from the blade does lift up from the rail easier than I thought it would, which from my understanding is expected. I'll try holding that side of the saw down against the rail like you're supposed to when making beveled cuts to see if that helps.

I'm assuming I shouldn't be expecting finish-ready endgrain from these cross cuts? I just want to make sure I have my expectations set correctly since I've only ever used a hand saw and shooting board for crosscutting pieces.

I press down on the saw base plate to hold it flat against the rail, just like you're proposing to do.  Make sure you're fingers are safely located!

My TS75 with the universal blade cuts without leaving saw marks, your TS60 should do as well.  Keep practicing, it took me a while to get the proper technique. 

When you're learning, try not to plunge the blade into the work piece as you're starting the cut.  There's a lot of power in the saw and it can be difficult to control during a plunge cut.  The saw is trying to pull itself into the work piece and you're trying not to "slam the saw into the rail".

Regards
bob

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Looks to me like the burn marks are just from going way way too slow. At that point it's just burnishing the surface. About what speed were you going? I always go essentially as fast as the saw wants to go with moderate pressure

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Yes, you should be "Pushing" it but not "Forcing" it. There is a balance.
When I cross-cut the ends of a recent Oak table project, the results were beautifully smooth. Single pass full depth
It did produce some fuzz at the ends, and I didn't bother to try to mitigate it, because I knew it would be removed by the round-overs.

 

[mino]

... these are rather small pieces, much more suited to a miter saw. It's not that you can't do it with a track saw, but the track needs to be supported better. Building a fixture that does that will help you in this endeavor.

Another great thing for this type of work, if one has no other option, are the rapid clamps as they are better at preventing angle movement with such shor stock:
https://www.festool.com/accessory/489790---fs-rapidr

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Yeah, the rapid clamps are great. There are a lot of applications where they are the best way.
The Geckos are a more limited use thing, but they have saved me several times.
They are probably out of the scope of many, but the option is there.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Apologies for being the one to bring up the 'elephant in the room' - so you're using a TS60 and a rail to crosscut 2" wide stock ?? I'm sure that all of the above advice is heartfelt and well-meaning, but a plunge saw is TOTALLY the wrong tool for this job.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Apologies for being the one to bring up the 'elephant in the room' - so you're using a TS60 and a rail to crosscut 2" wide stock ?? I'm sure that all of the above advice is heartfelt and well-meaning, but a plunge saw is TOTALLY the wrong tool for this job.

I said that clear back on post #6, but if it's all a hand tool only guy has at his disposal? It can be done, but a more dedicated fixture should be used to support the rail and the part better.
I know I have seen someone on Youtube make one, but I can't remember who it was?