Festool TS 60 vs Mafell MT55cc

[techne]

An interesting query, but if this question was asked before the relatively recent release of the TS 60...the over riding opinion a few years ago would have been to just purchase the MT 55, it was that simple. The TS 55 was ok but really underpowered when compared to the Mafell product.

100% agreed. That’s exactly why I bought the Mafell.

I wondered if it was like a Nikon-Cannon dynamic, with each company incrementally improving on the previous generation of the other brand—is the TS60 incrementally better than the Mafell, as the Mafell was better than the TS55?

I can see circumstances where the TS60 would have the slight edge—extra depth of cut, ability to ride on cross-cut rails.  For those who have used both—[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member], [member=79486]Fourmi[/member], [member=44099]Cheese[/member]—when would you choose to use the Mafell instead of the TS60? 

Does it have the edge more in site carpentry/framing contexts like [member=297]Michael Kellough[/member] mentioned?

(Don’t want to overthink, but trying to understand the nuances.  I know that either saw will be brilliant.)

 

[Fourmi]

The force it takes to overcome the plunge spring is enough to keep it still, but not with a bevel.

The 'safest' option for non-experienced users is to use a non-plunging track saw for track guided bevel cuts... i.e. Mafells KSS saws, Festools HKC saws, as you don't need to overcome the force of the spring.

I often have to cut waterfall ends on solid surface worktops with veining - the cut has to be perfect, first time, every time. I use a slightly modded TS75, one of these modifications was to shorten the plunge spring so it requires a lot less force to plunge.*

*I do not recommend modifying tools (unless you seriously know what you are doing), weakening the plunge force can result in increased danger in the case of kickback which in turn can result in injury!!!

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=66315]techne[/member] As mentioned above, the specific reason why I originally bought the Mafell was the fact that I was doing a lot of kitchen installs with solid hardwood countertops, and the TS55 struggled with these. 2-3 passes with incremental depth increases was quite common for me. If I didn’t do this, the TS55 would ‘lock out’ resulting in a 10-15 minute wait for the motor to cool down. Where rips were needed (reducing the countertop depth for example) the only way I could get this done in a reasonable time  was to use the 12T Panther blade - with the cut then requiring extensive cleanup because it’s pretty rough. The MT55 did all of that stuff in one pass with no fuss.

I’d also add that the Mafell’s scoring function initially appealed to me (jobs like kitchens need laminated panels to be cut in fairly extensive quantities). In practise, however, I discovered that the preset ‘score’ position moves the blade over to the right by 0.1mm as part of the design. That tiny shadow line was always visible, so I only ever used it once - before reverting to my tried-and-trusted method of initially running the saw backwards down the rail with the plunge depth set at 2mm. This gives a flawless edge because the teeth are cutting downwards into the laminate rather than bursting up through it.

To answer your question - I originally bought the TS60 for the specific task of cutting 45-degree bevels in 40mm material for countertop waterfall ends. The TS55’s cut depth was a few mm short - just enough to create the annoyance of having to finish the cut with a Ryoba pull saw and flattening the manually-cut section with a low-angle block plane. Not difficult, but time-consuming, and not ideal when you’re working to a tight timescale and your work schedule’s 100% full for months in advance.

Right out of the box though - the TS60 instantly became ‘the one’ for everything. Just stuff like the extra power, the lack of motor overhang etc. all made life easier and simpler. As I said right at the beginning of the thread - all three are truly great saws. But the TS60 (for me anyway) has the edge - and the only time the Mafell now gets pulled out is on those occasions when its greater physical robustness is appropriate. Trimming off the ends of decking boards or trusses outside in the cold and wet, for example - or any other kind of dirty job being done in a rough-and-ready environment. The TS55 now sits in the van semi-retired, purely as a backup machine. It’s my third one, it has thousands of hours on the clock, it’s been tortured and looks like junk, but it’s been 100% reliable and still works as well as the day I bought it.

 

[Fourmi]

That tiny shadow line was always visible, so I only ever used it once

To be fair, there are times when the shadow line isn't visible... like cutting down the depth of a shelf, you just don't put your head into the cupboard to see 0.1mm!.. but you do have point, otherwise I wouldn't have picked up the TSV60. But the Mafells scoring is very fast to use and most scenarios gives a 'perfectly' clean cut.

When you need a cleaner cut (without step 1 set saw plunge to 2mm, step 2 run saw backwards, step 3 set saw plunge to correct depth, step 4 cut...) the TSV60 does a better job - depending on how it is setup... you can set the TSV60 up to give a shadow line worse than the Mafell and have both sides of the cut clean - mine is set up for no shadow line but the off cut chips out.

Of course you can do better than the TSV60 and do a milled edge with a router - this is my go to method for visible fillers, etc., on high end kitchens.

 

[mrboult]

The Mafell doesn’t cut at the splinter guard/cut line when bevelled at an angle. That was the end of my interest.

This is definitely no true of either of mine. I mark the line, bevel cut and it cuts the line.

What!!?? Well it’s this form that many many people have told me/confirmed that to be the case. WTF FOG users!!!!
I’m genuinely anoyed to have been duped with this lie. I thought it was madness, and so mention it EVERY time the MT55 is mentioned. This is the FIRST time I’ve been corrected. Thank you

Though I’m now (understandably) still sceptical until i one day actually get to hold one. Too much misinformation to believe anything lol.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

The off cut chips out.

That's exactly why I do the 2mm reverse score  [big grin] Most laminate panels over here are supplied oversize for on-site cutting. Perfectly-edged offcuts are like gold, and it's amazing just useful these nice 'oddments' can often be. I'd also add that for non-standard-sized kitchen panelling, I'll buy 8' x 4' sheets of material and cut my own. With the cost of these - every offcut counts, and there's nothing worse than picking up a 600mm wide offcut to fill a 600mm hole - only to discover that only 596mm of it is usable because both edges are chipped out.

But you're obviously quite right with eveything you say. And I, too, will use a routed cut when it's absolutely necessary.

 

[Cheese]

What!!?? Well it’s this form that many many people have told me/confirmed that to be the case. WTF FOG users!!!!
I’m genuinely anoyed to have been duped with this lie. I thought it was madness, and so mention it EVERY time the MT55 is mentioned. This is the FIRST time I’ve been corrected. Thank you

Though I’m now (understandably) still sceptical until i one day actually get to hold one. Too much misinformation to believe anything lol.

Here we go...I'll just pour some more petrol on this fire.  [big grin]

90% of my cutting is done at 90º so the Mafell thing wasn't and still isn't an issue for me. If I need to do a waterfall cut, I'd just use the TSC K saw instead.

Here's 3 photos of a TSC, HKC & a MT 55 on a Festool rail.  The 4th photo is the MT 55 on a Mafell rail.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

 

[SoonerFan]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] thanks for the photos. I don’t have a Mafell and did not know about the “Mafell thing” until reading this post. Photos make the waterfall cut issue very clear.

I have however recently started to look at Mafell saws as I research carpentry saws (HKC or Mafell KSS). The HKC could do most of what I need.  I hear that in some cases it lacks depth to do compound bevel cuts on US lumber (2X4, 2X6, etc). Is this correct?  Ideal carpentry saw for me would be:

1. Cordless
2. Be able to handle waterfall cuts (no “Mafell thing”)
3. Be able to do compound bevel cuts on 1.5 inch  / 38mm material

Does something like this exist? Maybe an HKC 60 in the future from Festool?

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] thanks for the photos. I don’t have a Mafell and did not know about the “Mafell thing” until reading this post. Photos make the waterfall cut issue very clear.

I have however recently started to look at Mafell saws as I research carpentry saws (HKC or Mafell KSS). The HKC could do most of what I need.  I hear that in some cases it lacks depth to do compound bevel cuts on US lumber (2X4, 2X6, etc). Is this correct?  Ideal carpentry saw for me would be:

1. Cordless
2. Be able to handle waterfall cuts (no “Mafell thing”)
3. Be able to do compound bevel cuts on 1.5 inch  / 38mm material

Does something like this exist? Maybe an HKC 60 in the future from Festool?

As a professional carpenter, I've found that the KSS40 covers the vast majority of my cutting needs, and is the only circular saw which has a permanent home in the van. I just barely cuts through a 2x4 at zero bevel, which is all I need 99% of the time. I just used it to install framing in a basement remodel, and have used it to trim out whole basements, including cutting crown moulding (compound cuts, obviously).

Most of the "50"-class saws will struggle to completely cut through a 2x4 when beveled at 45 degrees. My KSS-400 will do so (just barely), HKC-50 will not, not sure about the KSS-50. I will say, I can't remember the last time I needed to cut framing lumber at anything other than 90/0, with the exception of hand framing a roof, where compound miters do come into play for the seat cuts on valley rafters.

If I was hand-framing roofs, or just wanted that flex of being able to fully cut 2x lumber at 45 bevel, then I'd just get the KSS-60 and get on with it. Awesome saw, and if I could only have two saws, it would be my KSS40, and a KSS60.

I agreee with the idea that the "carpentry" saws are better suited to bevel cutting. Not saying plunge-cutting saws can't do it, but I feel much more comfortable cutting bevels with a fixed-base saw. That being said, if it's "mission critical" and needs to be perfect, I'll probably perform the cut on my sliding saw, do it at the shaper, or find a colleague with the right machinery. I'm sure there's a creative way to make this cut at the bandsaw. The point here being, try to avoid the trap of trying to identify the one saw which checks all of the boxes. I have 6 different rail-compatible circular saws, and even then there are some holes in my coverage. Each of them are great saws in their own right, and are "tools in the toolbox" to be used for a given task.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Listing for KSS 50cc (cross cutting system) says it will cut 1-5/8” at 45* on the track. 1-7/8” off track.
Calls it the “next generation of the KSS 400”.

 

[thudchkr]

As a professional carpenter, I've found that the KSS40 covers the vast majority of my cutting needs, and is the only circular saw which has a permanent home in the van. I just barely cuts through a 2x4 at zero bevel, which is all I need 99% of the time. I just used it to install framing in a basement remodel, and have used it to trim out whole basements, including cutting crown moulding (compound cuts, obviously).

Most of the "50"-class saws will struggle to completely cut through a 2x4 when beveled at 45 degrees. My KSS-400 will do so (just barely), HKC-50 will not, not sure about the KSS-50. I will say, I can't remember the last time I needed to cut framing lumber at anything other than 90/0, with the exception of hand framing a roof, where compound miters do come into play for the seat cuts on valley rafters.

If I was hand-framing roofs, or just wanted that flex of being able to fully cut 2x lumber at 45 bevel, then I'd just get the KSS-60 and get on with it. Awesome saw, and if I could only have two saws, it would be my KSS40, and a KSS60.

I agreee with the idea that the "carpentry" saws are better suited to bevel cutting. Not saying plunge-cutting saws can't do it, but I feel much more comfortable cutting bevels with a fixed-base saw. That being said, if it's "mission critical" and needs to be perfect, I'll probably perform the cut on my sliding saw, do it at the shaper, or find a colleague with the right machinery. I'm sure there's a creative way to make this cut at the bandsaw. The point here being, try to avoid the trap of trying to identify the one saw which checks all of the boxes. I have 6 different rail-compatible circular saws, and even then there are some holes in my coverage. Each of them are great saws in their own right, and are "tools in the toolbox" to be used for a given task.

I use the KSS 40 as well, probably more than any of my other saws, but often run into boards that are slightly thicker than 1-1/2".  You are then saddled with trimming off that little bit of extra, often with a block plane as mentioned by woodbutcher.  I decided to get a "KSS" saw that would be able to manage that thicker lumber and after viewing the specs on both the KSS 50 and the KSS 60 decided on the 60.  I still grab the 40 for most cuts, but the 60 is now available when I'm dealing with those pieces that are too thick for the 40.  Have been thrilled with the performance of the 60, with it's only real issues being it is larger and heavier.  It also provides a longer track than the KSS 40 which is another benefit.

 

[Svar]

The Mafell doesn’t cut at the splinter guard/cut line when bevelled at an angle. That was the end of my interest.

This is definitely no true of either of mine. I mark the line, bevel cut and it cuts the line.

What!!?? Well it’s this form that many many people have told me/confirmed that to be the case. WTF FOG users!!!!
I’m genuinely anoyed to have been duped with this lie. I thought it was madness, and so mention it EVERY time the MT55 is mentioned. This is the FIRST time I’ve been corrected. Thank you

Though I’m now (understandably) still sceptical until i one day actually get to hold one. Too much misinformation to believe anything lol.

[member=22067]mrB[/member]  It is definitely true. I have mt55 that does that and the issue has been discussed at length on Mafell users forum. Some went as far as shimed trunions to fix the problem.
Perhaps Mafell fixed it at some point.

 

[Michael Kellough]

TS75 has (or had) the same problem of cutting below the splinter guard when beveling and the solution was also shimming the trunnion blocks.

 

[Cheese]

Hey guy's I'm still not understanding why this is a problem.

I strongly dislike the fact that the Festool track saw cuts the splinter strip when the blade is angled. It just chews up the hard splinter strip into pieces that you can then no longer use as a datum point when you position the rail against the pencil marks. It's a hot mess.

So, if 1 mm measurements are important for critical positioning, at which point along this ragged splinter strip do I decide to position this edge along the pencil line to give me an "exact" measurement?

Check out this, a Festool splinter strip aligned along a Starrett rule. My eyeball says there are some 2mm gaps between the splinter strip and the rule edge. What do I align the pencil mark to?

The Mafell rubber strip is just so much easier to use...and more accurate. Here's a comparison between the Festool and the Mafell splinter strips when they've been cut.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[Lincoln]

Hey guy's I'm still not understanding why this is a problem.

I strongly dislike the fact that the Festool track saw cuts the splinter strip when the blade is angled. It just chews up the hard splinter strip into pieces that you can then no longer use as a datum point when you position the rail against the pencil marks. It's a hot mess.

So, if 1 mm measurements are important for critical positioning, at which point along this ragged splinter strip do I decide to position this edge along the pencil line to give me an "exact" measurement?

Check out this, a Festool splinter strip aligned along a Starrett rule. My eyeball says there are some 2mm gaps between the splinter strip and the rule edge. What do I align the pencil mark to?

The Mafell rubber strip is just so much easier to use...and more accurate. Here's a comparison between the Festool and the Mafell splinter strips when they've been cut.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

It's not a problem, just something for Festool users to use as a criticism. If it were the case with the Festool saws, it would be called out as a great feature!

 

[mrboult]

I don’t see anything close to 1mm discrepancy in that splinter guard cheese. Maybe a 1/3mm.

I’ve had worse than your photo, with a dull blade bevelled on the splinter guard, and it becomes a slight issue with ultimate accuracy. But honestly, I’ve no issue with what your photo shows.

And in answer to your question. . I’d say the high point is clearly where you align your marks

Regarding the Mafell blade aligning with the splinter guard in bevel cuts. . I want to trust you all maybe they changed it, I’ll find out one day

 

[Svar]

I strongly dislike the fact that the Festool track saw cuts the splinter strip when the blade is angled. It just chews up the hard splinter strip into pieces ...

None of my Festool saws cut the splinter strip when angled. They pivot perfectly around the edge.

 

[SoonerFan]

Thanks all for the additional input. I will look at the Mafell cordless carpentry saw options. If I need to give up one thing on my list it would be depth of cut for miters. Thanks again.

 

[Cheese]

I really do prefer using the Mafell over the Festool saw. There are so many small details on the Mafell that just make it more pleasant to use.

Right now I have the MT 55 & the HKC 55 in the lower garage area and both are being used for construction purposes. The MT for sheet goods and the HKC for framing. Love the Mafell rails...so easy to deal with and blade changing on the MT is easy-peasy.

The TSC K is in the upper garage area and it's dedicated to cutting foam board insulation, mostly 1-1/2" or 2" thick. The nice thing about the Festool rails is they don't need to be clamped down to the foam and just stay in place as long as you're careful when cutting. Unfortunately, the TSC will not cut completely through the 2" foam when I use it on the rail.

The MT 55 offers a little bit more cutting depth 57mm vs 55mm and they also offer a 162mm diameter blade vs 160mm for an additional 1mm depth, but clamping the Mafell rails on the foam would not be fun. I'm using a single 5.0 battery in the TSC K to reduce the weight slightly and the battery life is extraordinary for cutting foam.

There's no such thing as the perfect tool.  [smile]

 

[SoonerFan]

There's no such thing as the perfect tool.  [smile]

I agree there is no perfect tool….just the right tool at the right time. For me and saws the first right tool at the right time was the TS55. I was working out of a garage and needed to put stuff away to get the cars back in. Next was the TS75. I needed more power and greater depth of cut for some hardwood projects. Then came the Kapex as an upgrade to an old miter saw. Then came a dedicated shop and a SawStop PCS.

Now the TS75 gets used only when I need a straight edge on thicker rough sawn lumber. The TS55 is used to break down sheet goods into manageable sizes and some scribe cuts. Kapex is used every project as is the SawStop.

I am looking at carpentry saws for a couple reasons. I am doing some remodeling in our house. To keep the dust out I take a bunch of measurements, go to the shop and make a bunch of cuts on the Kapex before going back inside to install. An HKC55 or KSS would save a bunch of trips for some of the smaller jobs and help avoid when I cut something a mm or 2 long. Second I build and install cabinets for others. Often times I need a few miter cuts during the installs.  Would be nice not to avoid return trips to the shop for these cuts.