TSO MTR-18

[Claimdude]

Hans,

It might be that the confusion derives from the breakdown at the bottom of the page under "Related Products". One could take that to mean you are just getting the triangle and the lip piece for $229. I was not confused though as the main part of the add states "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" clearly states the features of the unit pictured to the left which includes all components in this system. Now, if I am wrong and the triangle with lip is all you get for the $229 that would be false advertising since one can easily conclude all components are included at $229. The only clarification I can think of would be to add description at the bottom of the page making it clear that the MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting can be purchased as two separate components.

Jack

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
[member=10616]Claimdude[/member]  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

 

[tjbnwi]

Hans,

It might be that the confusion derives from the breakdown at the bottom of the page under "Related Products". One could take that to mean you are just getting the triangle and the lip piece for $229. I was not confused though as the main part of the add states "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" clearly states the features of the unit pictured to the left which includes all components in this system. Now, if I am wrong and the triangle with lip is all you get for the $229 that would be false advertising since one can easily conclude all components are included at $229. The only clarification I can think of would be to add description at the bottom of the page making it clear that the MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting can be purchased as two separate components.

Jack

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
[member=10616]Claimdude[/member]  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

[member=10397]Hans[/member]--with the confusion-----on the main product page after "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" add the line-----(shown with optional accessories)

Tom

 

[nclemmons]

A question to the Beta testers too. How do you end up storing this thing and it's accessories? 25" triangle is pretty large precise object and I wouldn't want to drop it or ding the edge. I was thinking a woodpecker style MDF holder and wall mount may be the best option but like to hear what you all are doing.

I have a space under my traditional workbench and store it flat.  You could also hang it on the wall.  The accessories I store in a box with MFT dogs and other clamps.

I have debated making a hanger from scrap wood on the side of the MFT table that slides in the T-slots to makes it accessible but securely stored.

I personally never liked the MDF holding panels from Woodpecker.

 

[Bohdan]

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
[member=10616]Claimdude[/member]  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

So having read all of the posts and looked at the website I still have no definite idea as to what the bits cost.

Could we get a definite answer from [member=59331]TSO Products[/member] as to what you get for how much $$?

 

[Dane]

I concur.  I've read all the post and looked at the website numerous times and still have no idea what comes with the 229.00 option.  There appear to be 2 different squares- is the 229.00 just a more expensive bare square?  And then to get the angle thing and dogs you have to pay another 99.00?  So, 329.00 to get all the functions shown in the videos?

 

[Cheese]

Well FWIW...I can see why some people are confused as to what's included in the package.

Under the main heading:MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting $229.95, there are 8 different photos that highlight the product but only 1 of those photos is of the actual product you receive for $229.95. The other 7 photos all show the Precision System Triangle along with Optional Master Accessories Kit which costs an additional $99.95. Therein lies the confusion.

The addition of the PTR-18 on the bottom of the page also adds to the confusion. It's simply a triangle with a removable foot...exactly what a naked MTR-18 is.  Thus a person could surmise that the $30 difference in price between the two triangles must be the additional parts that are shown at the top of the page in those 7 photographs.

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Someone may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

 

[HarveyWildes]

I've been watching for this TSO announcement for a few weeks, and I'm somewhat disappointed by the concept of the tool.  I was hoping for something that would replace the Festool angle unit in the guide rail accessory kit.  In other words, something like the other TSO guide rail squares, but with variable angles.  I've been holding off on a TS 55, but just ended up buying it yesterday.  I was hoping to get the TSO variable angle guide rail square, so I am pretty sad that it doesn't exist.  It's even more disappointing since the Festool angle unit doesn't have a great reputation for holding an angle.  Any other variations on the Festool angle unit that I should consider?

That said, now I'll have to compare the TSO triangle to the Woodpecker large triangle and framing squares and the Anderson phenolic plywood square.  One of them will win out (or maybe two, if I get the Anderson square to start with on price).  A big disadvantage of the Woodpecker tools is that you have to wait for the next time they make a run of the tool.  Seriously, once they've made several runs of a one-time (I don't that word means what they think it means) tool, you'd think they'd figure out that keeping it in stock would not be a bad idea.  Any other variations on the precision triangle/framing square that I should consider?

 

[tjbnwi]

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

I've been watching for this TSO announcement for a few weeks, and I'm somewhat disappointed by the concept of the tool.  I was hoping for something that would replace the Festool angle unit in the guide rail accessory kit.  In other words, something like the other TSO guide rail squares, but with variable angles.  I've been holding off on a TS 55, but just ended up buying it yesterday.  I was hoping to get the TSO variable angle guide rail square, so I am pretty sad that it doesn't exist.  It's even more disappointing since the Festool angle unit doesn't have a great reputation for holding an angle.  Any other variations on the Festool angle unit that I should consider?

That said, now I'll have to compare the TSO triangle to the Woodpecker large triangle and framing squares and the Anderson phenolic plywood square.  One of them will win out (or maybe two, if I get the Anderson square to start with on price).  A big disadvantage of the Woodpecker tools is that you have to wait for the next time they make a run of the tool.  Seriously, once they've made several runs of a one-time (I don't that word means what they think it means) tool, you'd think they'd figure out that keeping it in stock would not be a bad idea.  Any other variations on the precision triangle/framing square that I should consider?

The MTR does work well as a variable angle guide rail unit. It is not as convenient as the GRS but it can be set (using the accessory kit) to the desired angle, clamped to the work piece, the rail is then butted against it.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

As I stated in my first post I beta'd this square. As with everything I have tested once released I return all of the prototypes and purchase the item if I feel it warrants my money. Once I receive the production unit, I'll reevaluate it and offer my thoughts on the release.

With the prototypes there were some issues, dogs that did not fit/work well, no degree scale on the hypotenuse, foot that was not quite right.

Picture of the very first one I received.

Tom

 

[woodvkk]

A video would also be helpful showing a variety of use cases. All the workpieces are small in photos shown. The triangle itself takes up so much room on the MFT, so how do you work with larger work pieces for example.

 

[Klemm]

a BIG Saturday morning THANK YOU to all of you.
What a fantastic, helpful and usable feedback - priceless!

we'll go to work with appropriate improvements and responses in the days ahead. - keep'em coming - that's how e keep getting better.
Loo for an itemized list of changes/improvements on this thread sometime into this coming week

Hans and Eric
info@tsoproducts.com

 

[tjbnwi]

A couple of videos of the first time I used the MTR. I called it an MFT square, at the time the video was shot I had no clue what it would be called.

As with all my videos, what you see is what you get. No edits, no fixing my screw ups. I held off posting them until now due to the MTR not being released. Hans has not seen these. I have a few more I will post latter.
=em-upload_owner


Tom

 

[nclemmons]

Thanks for the videos, Tom!  Nice walk-through.

 

[Klemm]

There seems to be only a 50$ shipping option?

There was a glitch in our site that presented FedEx Overnight as the only shipping option for some visitors. I fixed that yesterday morning, and apologize for any confusion.

During the launch period, all of our Triangle products will ship for free anywhere in the world.

Eric

 

[Michael Kellough]

My impressions (apologies for redundancies) this product page is the first source of confusion.

On the left is the "Master accessory kit". Poor name. Master of what? What can it be used for other than adding the most heavily promoted feature to only one of the two triangles? Very high price for what looks like not much stuff. Add info on dimensions, other machining specifications and weight to justify price. Knobs should be include in that price IMO.

The middle product has the most confusing name/price description. It's just a simple triangle at the posted price. Only suits name if you also buy the "Master accessory kit". Therefore, it should be sold with the parts needed to live up to it's title. IMO the whole kit with everything needed to provide "...Infinite Angle Setting" should cost no more than $300.

On the right is another simple triangle. What can it do that the other one can't? As someone mentioned, it would be better if the features of both triangles could be combined into one product. If it isn't much superior to the other triangle in some use why bother? I'd rather pay the extra $30 for the one that can be upgraded later.

I think it would be interesting to read some description of the machining process and material consumption etc. How much did that big chunk of aluminum weigh before you removed the bits that just add dead weight?

Another bit of personal opinion, round up to the nearest dollar. $200 rather than $199.99.

To sum up I'd change that Triangle product page to put the fully equipped "TSO MTR-18 with Infinite Angle Setting" @ $300 on the left, followed by the base "TSO MTR-18" @ $230 in the center, and the optional "Adjustable arm" @ $80. If it's justified, add a fourth position to the far right for the other triangle.

 

[DrD]

Agree with [member=297]Michael Kellough[/member], product page is too confusing, not easy to follow nor understand.  Product is priced like it was a Woodpecker OTT, yet we  know nothing about how it was calibrated, about how it was machined/milled/stamped, etc  I would need to know a lot more before considering purchase.

 

[bryan1982]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

Can this new angle device attach to a guide rail.
Or only be used in conjunction with mft as shown in the video?

Cheers

Bryan

 

[tjbnwi]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

Can this new angle device attach to a guide rail.
Or only be used in conjunction with mft as shown in the video?

Cheers

Bryan

Not TSO but I know it does not attach to the guide rail---currently.

It can be used off the MFT, I used a prototype to lay out stair strings and roof rafters. In the US you have to convert pics to degrees to make it work for rafters, an easy thing to do.

I looked at the other videos I have from testing the MTR, they were videos to Hans for R&D purposes. I'll leave it up to Hans if he wants them posted.

In a couple of weeks I'll be doing another set of stringers, I'll video the process to post. I did not video the previous sets of stringers or rafters. Sometimes getting work done has to come first.

Tom

 

[jimbo51]

I think that an obvious step would be to discount the Variable angle "set" so that buying the triangle and the adjusting bits together is cheaper than buying the two items separately. Festool often uses this approach.

I doubt that using acrylic would be only 30% the cost of aluminum. Part of the cost is paying down the investment in the R&D. The material used has no influence on that cost. When actually taking the tool to the work etc, I can see that acrylic might have durability issues.

The video on the large octagon did not teach me anything about the accuracy/precision of the system. I knew that the tool would be very good and that is all the video showed. I would like to know if the tool is extremely good and worth the high price. Because the fitting was done on an uneven surface and parts could not be carefully aligned, I could not determine how good the fit actually was.
Perhaps a follow-up will show how the pieces fit together on a good surface.

At least I was not the only one who thought the initial website presentation was not optimal.