TSO Products Bench Dog Double Grove Product Review

[Wood_Slice]

About a month or two ago bought the UJK Parf Guide Mark II along with the parf clips, TSO double grove short dogs and TSO double grove stubby dogs.

Well long story short the ones I received were NOT ideal for the precision of the MFT.

The TSO bench dogs were not milled precisely as described in the product information. They were supposed to have been 19.90 mm just a little under 20 mm to make it easy to place in the hole and remove with ease. However, the ones I received ranged from 19.74 mm to 19.85 mm. I was not aware that such a small differnce would make the product useless for precision work but it does.

I had contacted TSO tru their website anout the product and a week later still no response. Luckily for me their social media person saw a reply of mine on one of their product linked posts and contacted me. I was able to return the product and received my refund.

EDIT: trying to upload a short 2-3 min video of review but wont upload after compressing.

EDIT: UPDATE ON TSO- In late December I was contacted by Hans from TSO products and thru some emails back and forth he went above and beyond to satisfy any concerns I had. Just recently saw a post on youtube about a new quick connect add-on to their parallel cutting guides and Hans was the presenter, what I calming personality. Long story short I received a pair of the Close Fit small and stubby bench dogs. They measured as stated 19.98mm and fitted tightly. The small dogs i had to use the Festool knobs to screw on top for extra leverage to remove, superb.  The stubby were same, the smaller emd with the tapped hole fitted just as snug and tHe taller end went in and out of the perforated holes much easier, so the stubby have a dual purpose in my shop now. The threaded hole end is nicely snugg so I can use them in combination with the parf clips on my track and the opoosite taller end for useing to butt against when clamping objects.  I went in a little frustrated and thru the help of Hans from TSO products came out delighted. THank You.

 

[Claimdude]

Wood_Slice,

I have the clamping elements and the double ring TSO dogs used on a custom CNCd top. All work perfectly for me over the years. I don't think the dogs could fit any tighter and still be removable by hand and the clamping elements don't need to be cranked real tight in my opinion. FYI, if when joining a new forum your first couple of posts are how bad the products are you kind of cast a negative shadow over yourself. Especially since I don't recall seeing anyone make these assertions in this forum over the years...

Welcome to the forum. Also, the only tool brand I have more of in my shop than TSO stuff is Woodpecker. Festool closely follows

Jack

 

[Bugsysiegals]

If you do the math, 20.00mm - 19.90mm = 0.10mm = .0039".  Even if the dogs were as advertised, I'm not sure why you'd expect to use these for "precision" with 4 thousandths of an inch play?  If you want precision, they sell close tolerance dogs which are 19.98mm and have 0.00078" or almost 8 ten thousandths of an inch play.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

About a month or two ago bought the UJK Parf Guide Mark II along with the parf clips, TSO double grove short dogs and TSO double grove stubby dogs.

Well long story short the ones I received were NOT ideal for the precision of the MFT.

The TSO bench dogs were not milled precisely as described in the product information. They were supposed to have been 19.90 mm just a little under 20 mm to make it easy to place in the hole and remove with ease. However, the ones I received ranged from 19.74 mm to 19.85 mm. I was not aware that such a small differnce would make the product useless for precision work but it does.

I had contacted TSO tru their website anout the product and a week later still no response. Luckily for me their social media person saw a reply of mine on one of their product linked posts and contacted me. I was able to return the product and received my refund.

EDIT: trying to upload a short 2-3 min video of review but wont upload after compressing.

I don't understand this post. You didn't like the product and you received a refund. End of story???

 

[Wood_Slice]

Wood_Slice,

I have the clamping elements and the double ring TSO dogs used on a custom CNCd top. All work perfectly for me over the years. I don't think the dogs could fit any tighter and still be removable by hand and the clamping elements don't need to be cranked real tight in my opinion. FYI, if when joining a new forum your first couple of posts are how bad the products are you kind of cast a negative shadow over yourself. Especially since I don't recall seeing anyone make these assertions in this forum over the years...

The reason i posted these reviews is for one reason only. I have looked over the TSO website closely over the past few weeks and I have posted 2 honest reviews (have video on my instagrams that shows it) on their website but it seems if a persons review is not 5 stars it doesnt get posted. Look over their website product reviews, its either 5 stars or no reviews, which is technically possible. However, my reviews never got posted and they were pretty much same wording as the original post in this thread. Consequently, people dont get the full picture of the product.

 

[Wood_Slice]

If you do the math, 20.00mm - 19.90mm = 0.10mm = .0039".  Even if the dogs were as advertised, I'm not sure why you'd expect to use these for "precision" with 4 thousandths of an inch play?  If you want precision, they sell close tolerance dogs which are 19.98mm and have 0.00078" or almost 8 ten thousandths of an inch play.

I wanted to use the bench dogs for a reference on my MFT3 top to cut sheet goods. 2 dogs for the flat side sheet good reference and 2 stubby dogs with the parf clips to attach to the track and get square cuts. For this to occur the bench dogs must be wobble free. Additionally, the wobble is not consistent from dog to dog. This defeats the prupose of the precision perforated top.

If I was using the bench dogs for lets say position place for sanding, clamping for tasks like mortising (domino) etc the wobble wouldnt matter.

 

[Wood_Slice]

I don't understand this post. You didn't like the product and you received a refund. End of story???

The product looked good but was not as precise as stated on the website description. Reviewed the product and stated it was redunded to show they accpeted the return.

 

[afish]

It has been discussed before.  Dogs are not the best way for super precise cuts.  To me a MFT is more a mobile type workbench. Typically most people are making cuts for fillers, cutting scribs, finished panels etc in the field. Sure its nice to have a bench that produces a nice square cut which in most cases you can get. But in a mobile scenario you are most likely cutting to a scribe line anyways.  Would I attempt to use a MFT to build a set of Kitchen cabinets on ? "NO"  I have found the best way to get extremely square cuts is by using "rigid" fence and a track hinge and leave the dog holes for clamping.  The festool hinge has some slop in it. There is another company "dashboard" that makes a very similar one that appears to be better and have less slop but since I made my own from russian birch I cant vouch for either the festool or dashboard.  I can say my 4x8 MFT type bench with an 8020 fence and homemade track hinge produced extremely accurate and square cuts.  Far beyond what I was getting using dog holes. Its OK to give your honest opinion, but it looks like your first 4-5 posts were all just complaints.  Try to offer alternatives or ways/ideas to overcome the issue or post some positive stuff too.  As a consumer I value reviews and if a company is playing games with reviews its not right either.  So thank you for your honest opinion and try to think half full occasionally. 

 

[Julie]

I'm curious how you measured them. Mine don't show the same amount of variance.

TSO actually sells close fit bench dogs specifically for those of us who use the Parf guide system to make our tops.
I used the PGS mk2 to make my top and last week I bought 4 of the short close fit double groove dogs from TSO. They fit perfectly.

Measured with a dial caliper all measured the same at 19.97mm.
Measured with a digital micrometer the measurements were 19.968, 19.972, 19.965, 19.976. I am impressed with both the consistency and the precision of them.

 

[jcrowe1950]

Would I attempt to use a MFT to build a set of Kitchen cabinets on ? "NO"  I have found the best way to get extremely square cuts is by using "rigid" fence and a track hinge and leave the dog holes for clamping.  The festool hinge has some slop in it.

  FWIW, I have a different experience with the MFT/3 setup. It has been fairly easy for me to set it up for dead square cuts and yes, I have built cabinets on it. I will report more on the accuracy of the cuts from my Parf Guide created MTF tops. It seems to me, however, that at least some people are having good luck with guide rail clips and dogs for cutting square components. What I would find useful, were I doing cabinets as a business is a dedicated station as you describe with a large work surface and a dead square fence to cutting rail setup. Ron Paulk's designs are pretty interesting. But, consider that many people who use the Festool MFT/3 live in Europe where workshop space is typically more compact than in the U.S. In such cases, portability may be a secondary consideration. As always...YMMV and OALA.

 

[oldie]

Off topic
jcrowe:
Ok - I give in!
What does 'OALA' mean?  [embarassed]

BTW, BTHAs (Beginning To Hate Acronyms) - of course YVMV (Your View Might Vary)  [unsure]

Richard (UK)

 

[Brian Livingstone]

Hello,

OALA : opinions are like anuses (or something less flattering).

Brian

 

[oldie]

Off Topic

Thank you Brian: guess I lack a certain type of imagination - wish I hadn't expressed an opinion now  [bite tongue]  [smile]

Richard (UK)

 

[sancho57]

[member=74462]Wood_Slice[/member]

So lets see, You complained to the dealer.

They refunded your money and your complaining cuz they didnt post your review?

Tell us in your review were you honest and stated they happily allowed you to return them and get completely refunded ?

BTW I notice a varience in the hole size on my MFT especially after using it for quite a while.

So is your MFT brand new?

Is it a real Festool MFT or something you made yourself?

Lot of variables that you have not addressed.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=74462]Wood_Slice[/member]

So lets see, You complained to the dealer.

They refunded your money and your complaining cuz they didnt post your review?

Tell us in your review were you honest and stated they happily allowed you to return them and get completely refunded ?

BTW I notice a varience in the hole size on my MFT especially after using it for quite a while.

So is your MFT brand new?

Is it a real Festool MFT or something you made yourself?

Lot of variables that you have not addressed.

You echoed my response above but thought I'd add too that  Hans and others have commented that we all want the best accuracy possible but we are woodworkers - not NASA scientists.

 

[hdv]

Who says so?  [cool] I might not be one at the moment, but I didn't do 4 years of hard studying to become one for nothing (seriously - aerospace engineering).

Still, I do like my tools to be as accurate as possible (and admittedly sometimes more than sensible).

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation... I'll crawl back under my stone now...  [embarassed]

 

[mkasdin]

If you do the math, 20.00mm - 19.90mm = 0.10mm = .0039".  Even if the dogs were as advertised, I'm not sure why you'd expect to use these for "precision" with 4 thousandths of an inch play?  If you want precision, they sell close tolerance dogs which are 19.98mm and have 0.00078" or almost 8 ten thousandths of an inch play.

I wanted to use the bench dogs for a reference on my MFT3 top to cut sheet goods. 2 dogs for the flat side sheet good reference and 2 stubby dogs with the parf clips to attach to the track and get square cuts. For this to occur the bench dogs must be wobble free. Additionally, the wobble is not consistent from dog to dog. This defeats the prupose of the precision perforated top.

If I was using the bench dogs for lets say position place for sanding, clamping for tasks like mortising (domino) etc the wobble wouldnt matter.

try using some Teflon tape around the bench dog that will tighten the fit or a little shellac will tighten the mft hole, but you can quickly make a mess. I would check the squareness if using the mft for the rail cut once cut? As the poster above commented they make a close fit which is a very tight tolerance.

 

[afish]

Sometimes its not just about getting your money back.  It costs time and sometimes money to return an item.  Sometimes the time is more valuable than the money.  Just today I was reminded of that when I ordered some new bits for the MAfell DDF40 They arrived and 1 was brand new and one was clearly used.  I wouldn't have even cared but the one was visually duller and you could see a mark on the shaft from the set screw.  This kind of ticked me off since not only did I have to wait for them now I need to package them back up and send one back. Then wait for the return to process and wait to get shipped another.  Luckily I was planning ahead and didn't need them for a job.  Had I ordered them to do a job or it delayed a job I would be much more upset.  Ill add this wasnt Timberwolf it was a 3rd party vendor selling the CMT variant. I just dont want anyone to assume it was Timberwolf since they are the only Mafell dealer in the US it would be easy to make that assumption. I value all reviews good and bad, you do have to read between the lines and take some with a grain of salt.  However any company not posting all reviews or picking and choosing reviews to post is sketchy to me.  Im not even saying TSO did or dindnt do this.  They seem to be very good and stand by the products.  If a product was sold out of tolerance then simply immiting the mistake and saying they issued a refund is all is required.  The item should have been returned and verified for accuracy and a short response from the seller if they were found to be within tolerance.  Im sure TSO would have refunded the posters money even if they were returned and found to be good.   

 

[Cheese]

Nice to know it wasn’t Timberwolf [member=73094]afish[/member] ...because I’ve had nothing less than stellar service when talking with Nick Klomstad over the phone.  [big grin]

 

[afish]

Nope, I tried to cheap out and go with CMT.  More less because I just wanted to test them out compared to the mafell bits.  I usually like the CMT stuff for price to performance ratio.  This wasnt CMT's fault either.  Im not sure what happened because the coating looks fresh on the bit but you can obviously tell its been chucked up in something before and the center has a very blunt point.  I would think it got dropped but that doesnt explain the set screw mark.