Un-real Return

[Rick Christopherson]

I lose because the customer claims this is the condition I sent it in. I'm sure other more experienced online retailers have seen this type of thing before.

I'm curious about the details because this otherwise appears to be a pretty cut-and-dried case. So as a retailer myself, I'd like to know why the claim was settled in favor of the buyer.

When Paypal reviews a case, the only thing they have to go on is the information in the dispute correspondence the buyer and seller enter at the web site. When you "answered" the buyer's claim, did you use the on-line exchange to make your case? (If you responded to the buyer using normal email, Paypal wouldn't have seen it.)

In your response, did you make a logical argument defending your position, versus assuming that the case was cut-and-dried? What did you write? Did you show the pictures?

That is an important question to me, and the reason I ask is because it would be very easy to assume the case is self-evident and respond lightly to the claim. Without a logical argument, Paypal could see it as a "he-said, she-said" situation and their verdict could be a crapshoot. Conversely though, if you did present a logical argument, then it scares the heck out of me (as a retailer) that Paypal could dismiss the seller's claims.

 

[Aldo]

rboilard,

Been there, done that.

We have an Amazon store as well and recently a customer ordered a CXS from us and filed an A-Z claim about two months later, stating the box was empty when he received it. The full story is that he wasn't home to receive the box, so his mother (who happened to be in town for a couple of days) signed for it. Fast forward a few weeks and he barely decides to open the cardboard box. Turns out the box was completely empty!  [scared]

He files the claim. It's not in debate whether or not a box was shipped or whether or not it was delivered. There's a signature proof. The problem is that the box was apparently empty. He claimed the seal hadn't been broken, so basically we shipped him an empty box. I didn't personally pack it, but I'm pretty certain we didn't.  [poke]

Anyways, we were out a drill and $285.

It totally sucks, but the reality is if we choose to do business with these sites, odds are against us.

Any chance you can still return it under the 30 day guarantee?

Aldo

 

[jaguar36]

Without a logical argument, Paypal could see it as a "he-said, she-said" situation and their verdict could be a crapshoot.

Sounds like it was through amazon, not paypal.

However I don't see how it could be anything besides he-said, she-said.  A seller could easily ship a sys-lite missing the internals.  They could also take lots of pictures of a real sys-lite being packed first.  I'd actually say it would be more suspicious if they took lots of pictures as that wouldn't be something a normal seller would do.  The shipping weight might be evidence, but the buyer (or seller) could just claim it was different packing material.

 

[teocaf]

rboilard,

Been there, done that.

We have an Amazon store as well and recently a customer ordered a CXS from us and filed an A-Z claim about two months later, stating the box was empty when he received it. The full story is that he wasn't home to receive the box, so his mother (who happened to be in town for a couple of days) signed for it. Fast forward a few weeks and he barely decides to open the cardboard box. Turns out the box was completely empty!  [scared]

He files the claim. It's not in debate whether or not a box was shipped or whether or not it was delivered. There's a signature proof. The problem is that the box was apparently empty. He claimed the seal hadn't been broken, so basically we shipped him an empty box. I didn't personally pack it, but I'm pretty certain we didn't.  [poke]

Anyways, we were out a drill and $285.

It totally sucks, but the reality is if we choose to do business with these sites, odds are against us.

Any chance you can still return it under the 30 day guarantee?

Aldo

perhaps the mom became a festool addict and would do anything to feed the green monkey, including stealing from her son...( it's been known to happen where people lose all rational control over the festool alphabet soup: TSC and MFT and MFK, oh my...  CXS--those look cute, must have two...)

on a more serious note, can the drill be tracked through the serial number that the dealers register for their customers.  for example, if the box was indeed sent empty by some huge stretch of the imagination, the product with that s/n would still be at the dealer.  if, on the other hand the customer filed a fraudulent claim, can that s/n be reported to festool as stolen so it might get redflagged if it resurfaces again through repairs or resale?

one other thought:  i wonder if amazon checks the customer's record for multiple prior complaints of similar nature.  i'm thinking that would be a good use of all the vast amounts of data that they collect--that is to protect the dealers who are paying good money to trade through their site.

 

[tbellemare]

I saw an interview with Jeff Bezos (Amazon's CEO) on the Charlie Rose show. He has little interest in taking care of the "Market Place Sellers". His entire focus is on taking over all of online retail. He thinks he can do so and has his team consistently working on ways to make that happen. Those mechanisms run the full gamut, including selling at a loss or near loss to drive everyone else out. That was also Dell's strategy (plus EFP). I'm pretty certain that on average, Amazon makes more money per sale from the "Market Place Sellers" than from their own retail sales operations.

I worked for a company for a long time who's upper management considered business to be "War". I was even told that, "You go to War with all your troops" and recommended reading included, Sun Tzu's "ART of WAR". I don't work there any more because I fired them at the turn of the century. I prefer to conduct business in a friendly, helpful way where both parties receive value.

I would implore the OP to watch his back... It's a bit sad, but reality.

Tom

 

[rboilard]

Wouldn't the shipping weight going out and returning be a lot different? By that, wouldn't the weight difference prove that the buyer removed parts before they shipped it back for a return??

Shipping weigh was off by a just over 1lb, I report that as well. doesn't matter....

 

[Aldo]

rboilard,

Been there, done that.

We have an Amazon store as well and recently a customer ordered a CXS from us and filed an A-Z claim about two months later, stating the box was empty when he received it. The full story is that he wasn't home to receive the box, so his mother (who happened to be in town for a couple of days) signed for it. Fast forward a few weeks and he barely decides to open the cardboard box. Turns out the box was completely empty!  [scared]

He files the claim. It's not in debate whether or not a box was shipped or whether or not it was delivered. There's a signature proof. The problem is that the box was apparently empty. He claimed the seal hadn't been broken, so basically we shipped him an empty box. I didn't personally pack it, but I'm pretty certain we didn't.  [poke]

Anyways, we were out a drill and $285.

It totally sucks, but the reality is if we choose to do business with these sites, odds are against us.

Any chance you can still return it under the 30 day guarantee?

Aldo

perhaps the mom became a festool addict and would do anything to feed the green monkey, including stealing from her son...( it's been known to happen where people lose all rational control over the festool alphabet soup: TSC and MFT and MFK, oh my...  CXS--those look cute, must have two...)

on a more serious note, can the drill be tracked through the serial number that the dealers register for their customers.  for example, if the box was indeed sent empty by some huge stretch of the imagination, the product with that s/n would still be at the dealer.  if, on the other hand the customer filed a fraudulent claim, can that s/n be reported to festool as stolen so it might get redflagged if it resurfaces again through repairs or resale?

one other thought:  i wonder if amazon checks the customer's record for multiple prior complaints of similar nature.  i'm thinking that would be a good use of all the vast amounts of data that they collect--that is to protect the dealers who are paying good money to trade through their site.

Ha! Could be...

I remember a conversation with our Festool rep about serial tracing in the event of theft, etc. If I remember correctly, I believe Festool doesn't take note of that because the original user could have sold a tool at a garage sale, the shop with Festool power tools could be bought out, or other similar scenarios. The information may have since changed now that end users are personally registering tools with Festool.

I saw an interview with Jeff Bezos (Amazon's CEO) on the Charlie Rose show. He has little interest in taking care of the "Market Place Sellers". His entire focus is on taking over all of online retail. He thinks he can do so and has his team consistently working on ways to make that happen. Those mechanisms run the full gamut, including selling at a loss or near loss to drive everyone else out. That was also Dell's strategy (plus EFP). I'm pretty certain that on average, Amazon makes more money per sale from the "Market Place Sellers" than from their own retail sales operations.

I worked for a company for a long time who's upper management considered business to be "War". I was even told that, "You go to War with all your troops" and recommended reading included, Sun Tzu's "ART of WAR". I don't work there any more because I fired them at the turn of the century. I prefer to conduct business in a friendly, helpful way where both parties receive value.

I would implore the OP to watch his back... It's a bit sad, but reality.

Tom

The OP made a good point about most Festool customers being quality customers. Conversely, most Festool dealers are quality business people. It's unfortunate we're mixed in with online retailers who aren't and come across end users who aren't. Fortunately, these are the exception not the rule.

Aldo

 

[tbellemare]

Fortunately, these are the exception not the rule.

Aldo

I think that's accurate, Aldo! My customers are almost always wonderful people...

Tom

 

[mastercabman]

Just remember.....The customer is allways right!!!

 

[sae]

Wow, that's really ballsy.

I think the Secret Service handles these as it's mail fraud, might we worth reporting just in case there's a pattern (which there probably is).

 

[Gary in Texas]

This is one of those occasions when it would be handy to have a function within the tools electronics that can be disabled, or tracked, if stolen...  Like the TSA agent in Florida months ago that took an iPad home that was found "left behind" in security.  ABC had left it there after a lot of people reported being ripped off.  ABC showed up at his door two weeks later, he claimed to be innocent, after they asked him 3 times, they set of the alarm in the iPad.  A short while later the agent and his wife came to the front door claiming she found it.  The agent was fired the next day.

When will the day come when you have to verify you have received the merchandise, verify your identity, before a vendor will hit the magic button that will enable your Kapex or Domino or whatever gadget?  Kind of like buying software but needing the code/key emailed to you for activation....

 

[abcd123]

This is one of those occasions when it would be handy to have a function within the tools electronics that can be disabled, or tracked, if stolen...  Like the TSA agent in Florida months ago that took an iPad home that was found "left behind" in security.  ABC had left it there after a lot of people reported being ripped off.  ABC showed up at his door two weeks later, he claimed to be innocent, after they asked him 3 times, they set of the alarm in the iPad.  A short while later the agent and his wife came to the front door claiming she found it.  The agent was fired the next day.

When will the day come when you have to verify you have received the merchandise, verify your identity, before a vendor will hit the magic button that will enable your Kapex or Domino or whatever gadget?  Kind of like buying software but needing the code/key emailed to you for activation....

the idea is nice, but today I would welcome if festool would have a page to check whether the stuff you are buying is stolen or not. At the registration they have the serial numbers, so to allow users to report stolen items would be quite easy. Whenever I see some cheap festool on eBay I am thinking whether it is stolen or not and have no means to check.

 

[joiner1970]

rboilard,

Been there, done that.

We have an Amazon store as well and recently a customer ordered a CXS from us and filed an A-Z claim about two months later, stating the box was empty when he received it. The full story is that he wasn't home to receive the box, so his mother (who happened to be in town for a couple of days) signed for it. Fast forward a few weeks and he barely decides to open the cardboard box. Turns out the box was completely empty!  [scared]

He files the claim. It's not in debate whether or not a box was shipped or whether or not it was delivered. There's a signature proof. The problem is that the box was apparently empty. He claimed the seal hadn't been broken, so basically we shipped him an empty box. I didn't personally pack it, but I'm pretty certain we didn't.  [poke]

Anyways, we were out a drill and $285.

It totally sucks, but the reality is if we choose to do business with these sites, odds are against us.

Any chance you can still return it under the 30 day guarantee?

Aldo

Surely the shipping weight is registered like it is here in the UK ?

There was a show here on the BBC the other day where a guy posted something valuable through the Royal mail then claimed something was missing when it arrived. He claimed for compensation but they then check the weights listed at various stages of shipping and it was obvious nothing was removed until after it was delivered.

He was charged with fraud and given a heavy fine.

 

[Gary in Texas]

This is one of those occasions when it would be handy to have a function within the tools electronics that can be disabled, or tracked, if stolen...  Like the TSA agent in Florida months ago that took an iPad home that was found "left behind" in security.  ABC had left it there after a lot of people reported being ripped off.  ABC showed up at his door two weeks later, he claimed to be innocent, after they asked him 3 times, they set of the alarm in the iPad.  A short while later the agent and his wife came to the front door claiming she found it.  The agent was fired the next day.

When will the day come when you have to verify you have received the merchandise, verify your identity, before a vendor will hit the magic button that will enable your Kapex or Domino or whatever gadget?  Kind of like buying software but needing the code/key emailed to you for activation....

the idea is nice, but today I would welcome if festool would have a page to check whether the stuff you are buying is stolen or not. At the registration they have the serial numbers, so to allow users to report stolen items would be quite easy. Whenever I see some cheap festool on eBay I am thinking whether it is stolen or not and have no means to check.

If you have the serial number, you can have Festool verify if stolen or legit.....

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I just needed a couple parts.

The ekat thing sucks..

 

[pugilato]

Flip side of the coin... I ordered an RO90 through amazon. The systainer did not have the green lock. Contacted amazon and they gave me a credit for the systainer. This is why I love amazon.

I do sympathize with the vendor of the Syslite.

 

[rboilard]

Funny I just logged in and saw the last post......I actually did fill out a complaint form on the USPS Inspectors web page. Not sure if this could be deemed a fraudulent representation of goods via USPS. This syslite was shipped using the USPS Priority system........it would be great if they just went and knocked on his door. As far as the serial number thing, I agree if vendors could simply log in on their dealer page and post the stolen serial number that would be great. In this case I received back the original syslite with proper serial number, but all the guts and accessories were taken.

 

[abcd123]

This is one of those occasions when it would be handy to have a function within the tools electronics that can be disabled, or tracked, if stolen...  Like the TSA agent in Florida months ago that took an iPad home that was found "left behind" in security.  ABC had left it there after a lot of people reported being ripped off.  ABC showed up at his door two weeks later, he claimed to be innocent, after they asked him 3 times, they set of the alarm in the iPad.  A short while later the agent and his wife came to the front door claiming she found it.  The agent was fired the next day.

When will the day come when you have to verify you have received the merchandise, verify your identity, before a vendor will hit the magic button that will enable your Kapex or Domino or whatever gadget?  Kind of like buying software but needing the code/key emailed to you for activation....

the idea is nice, but today I would welcome if festool would have a page to check whether the stuff you are buying is stolen or not. At the registration they have the serial numbers, so to allow users to report stolen items would be quite easy. Whenever I see some cheap festool on eBay I am thinking whether it is stolen or not and have no means to check.

If you have the serial number, you can have Festool verify if stolen or legit.....

you mean via e-mail and getting response in couple of days? When having the possibility to buy a tool within the next 24 hours, knowing the serial number, the e-mail verification is not an option... The same for reporting stolen items - I have no clue how to report stolen tools to festool...

 

[Thebesciak]

I have couple years of experience with online sales and shipping thru USPS and most of the carriers....
and I must say that every year there is a more "fraudi" customers.
they will do everything to get something for free.
seller is very limited and has just small chance winning the claim.
all of these "funny" companies claims that buyer is always right, that kills good sellers market:
- ebay policy - buyer is always right even if they send you potatos back, seller protection policy is just on the screen - it doesnt work,
-paypal - thats not even a bank, they have no physical location, buyer has 180 days for return or can open the case thats something was missing - again up to 180days,
with pp you can't go to the court and sue them because officialy there is no place where they exist, they have just mailing adress and customer support address available, but no physical location,
- amazon, its a mix of paypal and ebay, I was with them for one day, but after reading buyer/seller policies more carefully I decided to avoid them,
and the last one USPS:
- they are not bad at all, within couple years nothing was missing or stolen from conus priority mail,
- international tracking system s...ks, all flat int. priority mail tracking is working ok till its out of US border, after that it is not updated till the package is delivered and USPS has 90days to update that traking info, i had a lot of cases where items were delivered and bad customer was opening the paypal case as item is not delivered, got the refund etc... USPS has 90days to update the tracking, paypal doesnt care about it and make the full refund to the huyer, seller has 30days only to respond for "buyer monkey business" so if usps will update tracking that item is delivered after 31days - seller is screwed, can not do anything in paypal because it is to late,
thats my little 5cents
greets

 

[Holmz]

Some people's lack of honesty and ethical behavioral standards is just appalling.

You're not alone in that view.

However there are many examples of things getting taken in transit, but the box needs to go through or they know where (and then who and how it was lost)

I believe the OP when he says it was complete when shipped.
I have no way other than the OP's opinion of the purchaser to know what has happened, nor do I care. Business has a profit margin to account for painful customers.