Upcoming CXS / TXS 18

[mino]

This is the first I heard of a country where Festool doesn't have a 30-day like-it-or-return-it guarantee.  I don't see a location in your profile, so where are you that you only had 2 weeks to return?

Will be somewhere in Europe.

Here any remote (phone, internet, etc.) purchase is entitled to 14-day return-if-not-satisfied window. Nothing to do with Festool as that is a legal obligation of the seller.

Either way, the poster should contact his local Festool entity directly (aka not the service contacts) and ask for options. /Assuming his seller is not willing to consider any./

C/TXS 18 are new tools, so is normal people mis-judge them. Festool may be willing to take it back or replace for some other tool just for some (useful) customer feedback ... or talk to his dealer a bit, if a major one.

 

[Mr Speaker]

This is the first I heard of a country where Festool doesn't have a 30-day like-it-or-return-it guarantee.  I don't see a location in your profile, so where are you that you only had 2 weeks to return?

Will be somewhere in Europe.

Here any remote (phone, internet, etc.) purchase is entitled to 14-day return-if-not-satisfied window. Nothing to do with Festool as that is a legal obligation of the seller.

Either way, the poster should contact his local Festool entity directly and ask for options. /Assuming his seller is not willing to consider any./

C/TXS 18 are new tools, so is normal people mis-judge them. Festool may be willing to take it back or replace for some other tool just for some (useful) customer feedback ... or talk to his dealer a bit, if a major one.

I am from the Netherlands. I have reached out to Festool about this, I hope they can help, I only have good experiences with them so I was taken aback by the dealer approach. I have a few CXS, a C18, TPC18, TID18.. I am really happy with the CXS and only sometimes miss torque. The reason for the CXS18 was to have one battery platform on location, extra torque was a bonus.

 

[mino]

...
I reported it immediately and at first they said that indeed it is louder than the preveous one, and when i said that I cannot use it then, they said to bring it in for repair. I told them that I would rather return it, and appearantly my two weeks were up.
...

[member=70889]Mr Speaker[/member]
Try to argue with them in a different way. The important part is that, for you, it does not matter what you measured. What matters is they specify it at 83dB(A) max.

Your piece may be a bit louder, or you do not have a proper anechoic chamber for your measurements ... But, that does not matter for you as the legal limit is taken from the manufacturer specs. Not from anything you measure yourself in "home" conditions.

So, to get this resolved you need to approach them once more, and do not go via the repair/service path. Instead contact their business/sales side directly, explaining the issue. Your is not really a technical problem but a sales (mis-)communication problem. Even if your sample was under 80 dB(A) as measured by you, you would still be legally required to provide the hearing protection as the manufacturer declared it as 83 dB(A). So there is no dice here - no matter how good a sample you get, you will not able to assign it to the crews the way you can assign the CXS drivers.

My advice is to go this way at it:

1) Explain that you were (incorrectly) led to think by the ads that the tool will be a functional replacement for the CXS, which it is not for your use case.

2) Remind that due to your goodwill exchange of information with Festool you lost the option of returning the tool within the EU-mandated 14-day window to the seller.

3) Ask them to exchange your CXS18 with an equivalent bundle of either a CXS (original) or, say, a C18 which are both rated at 76 and 75 dB(A) respectively and thus usable by your crews.

4) Advise them that they should advertise the CXS/TXS and C/T 18 as "Not requiring hearing protection in your country as not over 80dB(A)". It is likely the local Festool sales folks were not aware of this being a critical feature for businesses and so were not using it as a sales pitch for those products. And would not know (or their dealers) to advise these tools ahead of the more powerful ones.

Good luck!

ADD:

I am from the Netherlands. I have reached out to Festool about this, I hope they can help, I only have good experiences with them so I was taken aback by the dealer approach. I have a few CXS, a C18, TPC18, TID18.. I am really happy with the CXS and only sometimes miss torque. The reason for the CXS18 was to have one battery platform on location, extra torque was a bonus.

Makes sense. At least you know who not to buy from/through the next time.
[smile]

 

[Mapuzo Outpost]

I’ve been interested in purchasing the CXS 18 but haven’t been able to find anywhere in the US that sells them. Would someone here possibly be willing to help me in purchasing one and shipping it to me in the US?

 

[peacefulandpatriotically]

I just received a CXS 18. Systainer is a bit big, but the tool size is perfect. It's a bit bigger than my CXS 10.2 so it will not fit in some cabinets. but that is not the main issue. I produces 90 dBSPL(A), against the CXS 10.2 66 dBSPL(A), that means that you will need hearing protection (and offer employees hearing protection while using it. Festool has been difficult about it. I reported it immediately and at first they said that indeed it is louder than the preveous one, and when i said that I cannot use it then, they said to bring it in for repair. I told them that I would rather return it, and appearantly my two weeks were up. BTW: 90 dB sound pressure level A weighted, peak in the midrange at about 75% max rpm. It is very loud. Max legal limit without hearing protection would be 80 dBSPL(A). If anyone is interested, I have the measurements, made with class I meters (NTI XT2 TA)

Putting aside any issues this guy has with his warranty/return claim, I am surprised there isn't more talk about this comment.  A few points:

• modern cordless drills that are so loud they require hearing protection?? never thought that is something customers would have to consider
  
• what the heck is causing such a significant increase in noise level? I am not at all an expert with this sort of thing but I was under the impression that decibel ratings (dB) are a logarithmic unit and as such, an increase in measurement level of 10dB is effectively a doubling of sound level that a human perceives. If this is not accurate please correct.
  

 

[squall_line]

• modern cordless drills that are so loud they require hearing protection?? never thought that is something customers would have to consider
  
• what the heck is causing such a significant increase in noise level? I am not at all an expert with this sort of thing but I was under the impression that decibel ratings (dB) are a logarithmic unit and as such, an increase in measurement level of 10dB is effectively a doubling of sound level that a human perceives. If this is not accurate please correct.
  

If I had to guess (and I do, at this point), I'd say it's the shrinking of the housing compared to the C12/C18, bringing the source of the noise closer to the body of the tool, which could potentially also act as a resonator.  Cooling vents for such a small tool may exacerbate this as well.

 

[Mr Speaker]

I just received a CXS 18. Systainer is a bit big, but the tool size is perfect. It's a bit bigger than my CXS 10.2 so it will not fit in some cabinets. but that is not the main issue. I produces 90 dBSPL(A), against the CXS 10.2 66 dBSPL(A), that means that you will need hearing protection (and offer employees hearing protection while using it. Festool has been difficult about it. I reported it immediately and at first they said that indeed it is louder than the preveous one, and when i said that I cannot use it then, they said to bring it in for repair. I told them that I would rather return it, and appearantly my two weeks were up. BTW: 90 dB sound pressure level A weighted, peak in the midrange at about 75% max rpm. It is very loud. Max legal limit without hearing protection would be 80 dBSPL(A). If anyone is interested, I have the measurements, made with class I meters (NTI XT2 TA)

Putting aside any issues this guy has with his warranty/return claim, I am surprised there isn't more talk about this comment.  A few points:

• modern cordless drills that are so loud they require hearing protection?? never thought that is something customers would have to consider
  
• what the heck is causing such a significant increase in noise level? I am not at all an expert with this sort of thing but I was under the impression that decibel ratings (dB) are a logarithmic unit and as such, an increase in measurement level of 10dB is effectively a doubling of sound level that a human perceives. If this is not accurate please correct.
  

It's "this guy" with measurements. I have not done an analysis by opening the tool. But I think the noise is cause by the switch mode. you can measure distincs frequencies and harmonics that rise with the trigger setting. And yes, you will need hearing protection with the CXS 18 I have. The LAeq is 90.8 dBSPL(A) and the short term is 98.4 dBSPL. For the nitpickers. That is measured at 50 cm arm's length because that is how it is used (not at one meter). And inside a cabinet or under a table it will be more. With the RT60 time of my living room you can subtract 1 dB if you like. The limit in europe is 80 dBSPL. So this tool is over by a power factor of 10.

[attachimg=3]

I also did an analysis of the frequencies:[attachimg=1]

 

[Mr Speaker]

...
I reported it immediately and at first they said that indeed it is louder than the preveous one, and when i said that I cannot use it then, they said to bring it in for repair. I told them that I would rather return it, and appearantly my two weeks were up.
...

[member=70889]Mr Speaker[/member]
Try to argue with them in a different way. The important part is that, for you, it does not matter what you measured. What matters is they specify it at 83dB(A) max.

Your piece may be a bit louder, or you do not have a proper anechoic chamber for your measurements ... But, that does not matter for you as the legal limit is taken from the manufacturer specs. Not from anything you measure yourself in "home" conditions.

So, to get this resolved you need to approach them once more, and do not go via the repair/service path. Instead contact their business/sales side directly, explaining the issue. Your is not really a technical problem but a sales (mis-)communication problem. Even if your sample was under 80 dB(A) as measured by you, you would still be legally required to provide the hearing protection as the manufacturer declared it as 83 dB(A). So there is no dice here - no matter how good a sample you get, you will not able to assign it to the crews the way you can assign the CXS drivers.

My advice is to go this way at it:

1) Explain that you were (incorrectly) led to think by the ads that the tool will be a functional replacement for the CXS, which it is not for your use case.

2) Remind that due to your goodwill exchange of information with Festool you lost the option of returning the tool within the EU-mandated 14-day window to the seller.

3) Ask them to exchange your CXS18 with an equivalent bundle of either a CXS (original) or, say, a C18 which are both rated at 76 and 75 dB(A) respectively and thus usable by your crews.

4) Advise them that they should advertise the CXS/TXS and C/T 18 as "Not requiring hearing protection in your country as not over 80dB(A)". It is likely the local Festool sales folks were not aware of this being a critical feature for businesses and so were not using it as a sales pitch for those products. And would not know (or their dealers) to advise these tools ahead of the more powerful ones.

Good luck!

ADD:

I am from the Netherlands. I have reached out to Festool about this, I hope they can help, I only have good experiences with them so I was taken aback by the dealer approach. I have a few CXS, a C18, TPC18, TID18.. I am really happy with the CXS and only sometimes miss torque. The reason for the CXS18 was to have one battery platform on location, extra torque was a bonus.

Makes sense. At least you know who not to buy from/through the next time.
[smile]

[member=61254]mino[/member] Thank you that is good advice and I will follow that. Btw, my business is audio, including noise control and consultancy on product design. I alway wear hearing protection when exposed to 80 dBSPL or more. I have class 1 measurement equipement and with the acoustics in my house, the values will be 1 dB off. There is a lot to be said about exposure time and listening distance, which I love to get into . But bottom line for me at least is that the CSX 18 is 25 dB louder than  the CXS. That baffles me (pun intended). 25 dB is just so much louder, over 400 times the energy. It is uncomfortably loud.

Edit: When I say 1 dB off, I actually mean that there is a method to mathematically compensate for not measuring anechoicly, based on RT60 or reverberation time, and would amount to 1.0 dB in my measurements. Also a lot of EUT are measured at 1 m, and that is great, but another valid method is to use the actual distance which is 50 cm in real life use. If you would always use one meter, all headphones would be safe..

 

[Cheese]

I also did an analysis of the frequencies:[attachimg=1]

Very interesting, with the peak sound levels from 2K to 5K being also the most sensitive region for human hearing, that's probably why it's so obnoxious.

 

[Doug S]

I find the noise thing surprising and disappointing, one of the things I like about my T18 is how quiet and smooth it runs, I expected (hoped) the TXS18 would be the same.

I was going to order a TXS18 but having second thoughts now, you can clearly hear the difference in this comparison video at about 8m 25s and 8m 45s, the noise the TXS18 makes is quite shrill.

Should start in the right place.

=503

 

[grobkuschelig]

[mention]Mr Speaker [/mention] I think you should have it checked, or at least compare with a second one.
I only had the CXS-18 for a little while, but it did not seem louder than the TPC, although surely louder than the old CXS, which is to be expected with the design changes.
Always difficult to compare the sound power measurement when not measuring with an intensity probe in a home or any  environment for that matter. Just saying.

 

[Mr Speaker]

[mention]Mr Speaker [/mention] I think you should have it checked, or at least compare with a second one.
I only had the CXS-18 for a little while, but it did not seem louder than the TPC, although surely louder than the old CXS, which is to be expected with the design changes.
Always difficult to compare the sound power measurement when not measuring with an intensity probe in a home or any  environment for that matter. Just saying.

Good point, I will send it in for a check today. On your latter point. I do noise measuremnts for the purpose of bars and clubs getting permits based on how much noise pollution they generate inside bedrooms, living rooms and the like. So my measuements need to be on class 1 equipment and approved. Granted, power tools is not my area, for instance, I did not measure sound power, but sound pressure, but I if I compensate for reverberation the correction is max 1 dB (it is frequency dependend but the dominant band is around 2 kHz). But I also did not test under load. If Festool specifies 83 dB sound power, they will need to compensate for listening distance. Since this is a handheld tool, the max distance is litterally an arm's length, and actually less than that.

 

[mino]

...
If Festool specifies 83 dB sound power, they will need to compensate for listening distance. Since this is a handheld tool, the max distance is litterally an arm's length, and actually less than that.

There are EU standards (EN 62841 apparently) on how exactly the noise level of a tool is measured against which the 80 dB(A) rule is used. So no, they would not be specifying it at an (arbitrary) arm's distance. Yes, the 80 dB(A) legal peak would be aligned to the measurement to begin, already allowing for respective leeway by being stricter.

From what I remember, was long ago, above 90 dB(A) was considered dangerous when at point of reception. That would mostly align with the assumption of "80 dB(A) being the limit at the standard 1m distance".

This is not to defend anything.
Just making clear that measuring at half a meter and getting around 90 dB(A) in a non-anechoic setting (sound reflected off the walls) is actually aligned with the 83 dB(A) rating as that is at 1 meter and with no reflections. You likely aware, but the other readers may not be aware of this ..

In my experience my C12, nor my DRC 18/4, approach the 75 dB(A) rating. The are both about the same at 60-65 dB(A) in normal use.
But both  have some proper use in them so I would absolutely expect a used tool to be quiter over time, being the loudest when new is normal as all the mechanical parts are still "sharp". This may be exacerbating the contrast you see.

 

[Mr Speaker]

...
If Festool specifies 83 dB sound power, they will need to compensate for listening distance. Since this is a handheld tool, the max distance is litterally an arm's length, and actually less than that.

There are EU standards (EN 62841 apparently) on how exactly the noise level of a tool is measured against which the 80 dB(A) rule is used. So no, they would not be specifying it at an (arbitrary) arm's distance. Yes, the 80 dB(A) legal peak would be aligned to the measurement to begin, already allowing for respective leeway by being stricter.

From what I remember, was long ago, above 90 dB(A) was considered dangerous when at point of reception. That would mostly align with the assumption of "80 dB(A) being the limit at the standard 1m distance".

This is not to defend anything.
Just making clear that measuring at half a meter and getting around 90 dB(A) in a non-anechoic setting (sound reflected off the walls) is actually aligned with the 83 dB(A) rating as that is at 1 meter and with no reflections. You likely aware, but the other readers may not be aware of this ..

In my experience my C12, nor my DRC 18/4, approach the 75 dB(A) rating. The are both about the same at 60-65 dB(A) in normal use.
But both  have some proper use in them so I would absolutely expect a used tool to be quiter over time, being the loudest when new is normal as all the mechanical parts are still "sharp". This may be exacerbating the contrast you see.

Not to get into a standards discussion, though I would love that ; the IEC62841-1 is a product safety standard that "deals with the hazards presented by tools which are encountered by all persons in the normal use and reasonably foreseeable misuse of the tools." As such in my experience, these standards deal with conditions of 'normal use' normal use is hand held. Newer product safety standards like IEC62368 look more to immission than emmission. But my expertese is the the latter standard not the 62841-1. But it references the ISO11201 and 11203, and I think it comes down to the definition of 'workstation'. I think measuring at a realistic distance is what the standards intend. Going from 1 m to 50 cm is 6 dB in a free field, but the CXS does 25 dB less. That is a huge difference. And I do not agree that is will decrease over time. Typically plastics get stiffer over time. Again power tools is not my area, but cars get louder over time. The sales pitch will be that the newer cars are quieter, and that is true. But because of the degassing of plasticizers car interiors will get louder over time. Plus new mechanics engage better when new. Gears and bearing will typically get louder over time, I expect the same from a power tool. When I worked for Bruel & Kjear we monitored machinery using sound and vibration measurements. By listening in on bearings B&K can predict failures and utilize bearings for 95% of their lifetime. That is where a lot of my experience lies. And the sound & vibrations only go up from a new machine to one that is screaming for service .

 

[mino]

Gears need to run-in and get quiter after that. The same (was) with cars. Before low-friction engines of today which have very tight tolerances.

Anectodal experience is that my 2020 DRC 18/4 is about as loud a my 2014 C12 Li these days. It was way louder comparatively when new. That may or may hold for the CXS 18 depending on the noise sources

But your original CXS is likely as quite as it would ever be while that new CXS 18 is as loud as it would ever be per my experience. That will skew the relative percepcion a bit. Not sure how "big" a bit. Would not expect the CSX 18 ending up quiter, but the gap should narrow over time.

I myself just got convinced to get the original CSX. While they make them. My C12 Li is just 1350 grams, only 100g over the CSX 18 with the 3.1 battery from what I understand and with almost identical power.

 

[Mr Speaker]

The discrete frequencies I am hearing and measuring from the CXS 18 are the BLDC modulation frequency and mainly second harmonic. You see the frequency jump in discrete steps as the speed rises, so it is not (directly) related to the rotational speed.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Hi guys,

Regarding the finger pinching, in my uses it hasn’t been pronounced. However, if I (adjusting my natural) grip to more grippy with my trigger finger upwards I can get pinched. Yes, it’s a fairly sharp edge. As an afterthought, this is maybe a miss, coming from Festool who has really great smooth finish on their grips. I’ve been bothered with sharp trigger edges before, but not since I switched to Makita and Festool..
Still, on my use with the new CXS 18, I haven’t noticed, maybe it will be an issue in longer intensive use, or holding at different height/angle.

On the noise issue, yeah! It has a really high pitched noise. The C18 is a library speck tool in comparison.. My smaller CXT 12V Makita is a bit more quiet, the LXT 18V similar but still a lower pitch, all these also brushless. I was quite surprised by this myself. Then the TPC/PDC 18 and C18/T18 must be really quiet brushless drills..
Safe to say anyhow, I like the sound of the brushed drills a lot more, the C18 coming in very close to these.

Don’t know how all these motors differs, but in my hobby with RC cars, some brushless motors are super quiet, even more than brushed, but those are not high rpm motors. More a low to mid range. The motor in the CXS 18 is far less in diameter, compared to ie C18 and some other 18V brushless drills. So my guess the new CXS 12 will be more or less the same noise, or will the lower voltage help?

 

[grobkuschelig]

[mention]Mr Speaker [/mention] I received my exchange TXS-18 yesterday.

I think I understand what you mean. In mid-range I can get it to produce really uncomfortable high SPL pitches around 2.5 kHz.

I made a video but I don’t know how to upload it on the forum.

 

[woodferret]

The discrete frequencies I am hearing and measuring from the CXS 18 are the BLDC modulation frequency and mainly second harmonic. You see the frequency jump in discrete steps as the speed rises, so it is not (directly) related to the rotational speed.

That jives with the 'dentist drill' whine reported with other BLDC drivers like the M12.  The video with the CXS12 also sadly has a distinct higher freq when going full.  Bummer.

 

[grobkuschelig]

Here, quick grab from an analyzer app on the phone, showing the distinct sound signature at 2500 Hz.
This is not full throttle, but somewhere at 2/3rds of the trigger, I would estimate.