Vac fried again, will this be the last?

[jeh]

No, Festool dust extractors do not need to be hooked up through a UPS.

However, if you "constantly" fry circuit boards/ electronics - then that should be checked out by the utility or qualified electrician.

Overvoltage can happen for various reasons.

If this is the first time, there are even more possibilities, besides actual overvoltage having anything to do with the sudden fail of your Festool dust extractor.

But again, definitely no UPS needed to run a Festool dust extractor.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Not an authority but I am certain consumer UPS's are not designed to handle motors. A search yielded this and several other items: laser printers, copiers, shredders and curling irons.

 

[Coen]

How would the curling iron care? Pure resistive load.  [huh]

 

[Packard]

I googled “line voltage protection for electric motors”.  There is a whole class of devices for that application.  I am not sure that the cheap ones advertised will do the job.  I did not read the full descriptions.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lin...motors&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m

Metering electricity is quirky.

I had a customer that made point of purchase racks from wire.  The kind you see displaying candy and magazines at the checkout at the supermarket.  He was a major player in that business.

He purchased a new building.  The problem he faced was that the trunk line from the electric company was inadequate to support his electric current draw.  He wanted the electric company to install a new, larger capacity trunk line.

But he knew that he never paid for any of the electricity that he had used for his resistance welders (spot welders).  The draw, while very large, was for a very short duration of time.  That duration was too short for the meters to read them.

So he paid for all the normal electric—lighting, fans, etc.  But the resistance welders operated for “free”. 

To get the electric company to install a larger trunk line, he told them that he was opening the “ABC Electro-Plating Company”.  Plating lines use huge amounts of steady electricity.  He even had a large banner on the building that said, “The future home of ABC Plating”.

After the trunk line was installed, he took down the banner and replaced it with a sign that said “ABC Display”.

I suppose that the equipment to measure brief surges have to be particularly sensitive.  Some of them are rather expensive.

 

[usernumber1]

that story makes no sense and defies ohms law. there's a step down transformer in the welder you are not getting around pulling line voltage and current no matter how short it will count towards your bill. the meters are also analog there is no 'resolution' or poll rate.

i'm not sure power companies need a reason to install a 'trunk line' of any size, as long as you pay for it. I'm not sure anyone really cares what you designate it for as long as it passes code requirements.
sounds more like some insurance 'workaround' to me

 

[usernumber1]

even though the original poster Jaybolishes hasn't even logged in to this site in almost a year I'll add some terms that he should
check google : faulty ground, floating neutral, transient voltage, voltage spikes, and a myriad of things- from the grounding rod outside to the panel and inside wiring to the jack

 

[Packard]

that story makes no sense and defies ohms law. there's a step down transformer in the welder you are not getting around pulling line voltage and current no matter how short it will count towards your bill. the meters are also analog there is no 'resolution' or poll rate.

i'm not sure power companies need a reason to install a 'trunk line' of any size, as long as you pay for it. I'm not sure anyone really cares what you designate it for as long as it passes code requirements.
sounds more like some insurance 'workaround' to me

The welding company pays for the feeder line from the trunk line to their building.  The trunk line supplies power to several businesses and was sufficient to feed electricity to all those companies. But my welding customer was going to add so much power draw that the trunk line would no longer have the capacity to supply the electricity.

I don’t know what the consequences of too much draw.  I don’t know if it damages the trunk line, the equipment at the businesses that share that trunk line, or if it simply does not allow the resistance welders to cycle.  I have been told by other welding companies that resistance welders cycle too fast for the meters to register the usage. 

I did ask the customer about the banner that said, “The future home of ABC Plating”. And he told me the story as I related above.

I have not been in touch with them for about 25 years, and a Google check does not show them in Williston Park anymore.  I don’t know if they have moved or have gone out of business.  They had a very strange business model.

They supplied the racks to the supermarkets for free, and billed the candy companies for the right to display in those racks.  Sounds screwy and they were very slow payers.  We stopped doing business with them as a result.

 

[newellj]

No, Festool dust extractors do not need to be hooked up through a UPS.

However, if you "constantly" fry circuit boards/ electronics - then that should be checked out by the utility or qualified electrician.

Overvoltage can happen for various reasons.

If this is the first time, there are even more possibilities, besides actual overvoltage having anything to do with the sudden fail of your Festool dust extractor.

But again, definitely no UPS needed to run a Festool dust extractor.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Not an authority but I am certain consumer UPS's are not designed to handle motors. A search yielded this and several other items: laser printers, copiers, shredders and curling irons.

FWIW, I think what we should actually be referring to here is not a UPS but a line conditioner. Line conditioners assure the quantitative “quality” of the power.  A UPS is intended to supply power in the event of a power loss and triggers after an under-volt condition that can be ~10V, depending on the specific UPS. 

I’m posting back in this thread to report on my warranty experience, which I would rate as “fail.”  Once again, there were no unusual supply or load or use issues when the CT36E failed.

 

[newellj]

Posting this separately (maybe) from the reply above as an update.

Shipped the CT36E to Festool with prepaid label on Monday, 12/4.  Festool did not provide packing service so I had to purchase a very large box and a large quantity of packing material (~$45).

Festool received the CT36E on Wednesday, 12/6.  Festool logged the DE as “accepted” on Thursday, 12/7.

Since that time, there have been no updates to the repair status on FestoolUSA website. 

Because more than a week had elapsed with no update, I called Festool on Friday, 12/15 and asked about the status.  The short version of the response is: “I can’t tell what the status is, I can’t tell why it hasn’t been repaired, I can’t tell you when it will be repaired, and we do not have a method to notify customers about the status of repairs or when a repaired tool has been shipped for return.

I would rate this as a complete failure.  The only positive item here is that Festool provided a shipping label.  Having no answers about why the tool hasn’t been repaired, when the repair will be completed or when the tool will be returned, more than a week after the tool was received, is a total failure.  Even if this were a cheap consumer-grade item, this would be poor.  At Festool price points for tools sold to people who make their living with their tools, this is unacceptable.

 

[derekcohen]

This thread is interesting owing to a recent incident. Electricity is the black art to me, and my level of knowledge, and respect, is somewhere in line with magic and wands.

About 2 months back, the control board on a 5 year old Nova Saturn lathe went to control board heaven. The lathe had not been used for a few weeks - my use is generally light and limited to turning legs and spindles, not bowls - there was a quiet "pphhiiiittt", and ... dead. Nothing else like this has occurred to me before. There is a Nova Voyager drill press which gets much use (attached to a different circuit, now I think about this), and a Festool CT26, which is run from the same circuit as the Saturn.

Here in Oz we use 240 volts, generally 10 amps. My workshop also has a circuit with 15 amp, for Hammers K3 slider and A3-31 combo, and a 20 amp plug, the latter for a Hammer N4400 bandsaw. The Saturn and Voyager run on 10A (recommended). This second circuit was professionally installed about 15 years ago.

Now I am a little wary of this re-occuring. The repair to the Saturn was not cheap. Plus inconvenient. And so I am trying to ascertain what may have caused this. I have asked about surge protectors and told that they are unnecessary in Perth since surge protection is built-in at the main box. Nova do recommend a 3700 joules. Good luck finding one in 240 volts here in Oz. I have tried. I have now added surge protectors rated 1900 joules to each of the Novas, and am running them from the (assumed) good circuit.

Any advice, what to look for, or add as protection?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[AstroKeith]

This thread is interesting owing to a recent incident. Electricity is the black art to me, and my level of knowledge, and respect, is somewhere in line with magic and wands.

About 2 months back, the control board on a 5 year old Nova Saturn lathe went to control board heaven. The lathe had not been used for a few weeks - my use is generally light and limited to turning legs and spindles, not bowls - there was a quiet "pphhiiiittt", and ... dead. Nothing else like this has occurred to me before. There is a Nova Voyager drill press which gets much use (attached to a different circuit, now I think about this), and a Festool CT26, which is run from the same circuit as the Saturn.

Here in Oz we use 240 volts, generally 10 amps. My workshop also has a circuit with 15 amp, for Hammers K3 slider and A3-31 combo, and a 20 amp plug, the latter for a Hammer N4400 bandsaw. The Saturn and Voyager run on 10A (recommended). This second circuit was professionally installed about 15 years ago.

Now I am a little wary of this re-occuring. The repair to the Saturn was not cheap. Plus inconvenient. And so I am trying to ascertain what may have caused this. I have asked about surge protectors and told that they are unnecessary in Perth since surge protection is built-in at the main box. Nova do recommend a 3700 joules. Good luck finding one in 240 volts here in Oz. I have tried. I have now added surge protectors rated 1900 joules to each of the Novas, and am running them from the (assumed) good circuit.

Any advice, what to look for, or add as protection?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I believe Joules is perhaps a US way of specifying a surge protector capacity. Certainly in the UK it isnt used in specifications which would make finding an equivalent more difficult. Do you know what has been built into the main consumer box? It should be on a DIN rail with a 2 line protector sitting next to the main switch. Find a part number and google it. Many protectors have an LED that stays on after an 'event'

Does your power come in from overhead cables? That would be a high risk, but I suspect the installed protector will be enough.

Inline (ie inserted at the wall plug) protectors are unlikely to have very high capacity.

 

[mino]

...
I have asked about surge protectors and told that they are unnecessary in Perth since surge protection is built-in at the main box.
...

This is BOTH true and false. See below.

Either way you want to talk to a certified electrical engineer designing home installs - i.e. the guy who does the design, NOT the one doing the installs.
Even those engineers often do not have the proper know-how in these matters and "go by the book" without trully understanding the physics at play. The surge protection "game" is closely related to lightning protection which is almost "magic" to anyone without an electrical engineering degree *and* being smart at that. Yes, I studied that and can reliably say 50%+ of the gals who exit with a degree do not -truly- understand the Maxwellian physics involved.

Inline (ie inserted at the wall plug) protectors are unlikely to have very high capacity.

Good points. To put it "simple" for non-physicists:

For a proper surge protection, a grid-connected home needs to have - in practice - (at least) three levels. If one does not have the first two (at the breaker box), installing just the socket one is kinda placebo effect as there is no chance in h.e.ll it could handle the real surges when they come .. and the small ones it can handle are unlikely to damage (much). It certainly cannot hurt, but without the main protectors at the breaker box - which go into the tens even hundreds of kilo-JoulesAmpers*) capacity - it has a low chance to really help.

If one *does* have a proper surge protection at the breaker box (and that usually means a *working* lightining rod on the roof etc. etc.), the last level of protection is very much desirable though - precisely to protect the sensitive electronics - the "big" level 1 or 2 protectors are not as "fast" so while they can handle the main surge, one needs a "weak but sensitive" piece at the equipment end as well.

All that said, surge protectors do *not* protect against overvoltage - say a few-second 400V on a 230V circuit - which can easily fry the semiconductor-based power supplies attached to the electronics control boards. Is important to distinguish the two.

We had a bunch of stuff go poof like this in our community shop when the ground (and thus N) on the 3-phase supply was lost and we got a "floating" neutral with 290V on one of the phases ... thankfully this was easy to diagnose. Unlike a short-but-not-surge-fast spike.

Edit:
Not sure what the FOG has against the underground, but it keeps replacing h.e,l.l with "heck" for some reason.

*) The over-current devices at breaker boxes are rated not on total accepted charge but on how fast they can dissipate it into the ground as that is ther mode of operation and also why they do not "catch" the initial spikes.

 

[six-point socket II]

I've said this before and I say it again: If it's an isolated, one-time, event - there can be a gazillion reasons for the failures/ fried boards mentioned here.

And as mino pointed out, reliable & truly functional surge protection is highly complicated and expensive. And it gets only worse when looking at truly functional lightning protection.

To the best of my knowledge, this is pretty much the benchmark manufacturer of surge protection devices:https://www.dehn-usa.com/en-us (It's a German manufacturer, I'm linking to the US site here for ease of use for everyone.)

In my opinion: cords, power strips, (...) basically anything that is plugged into an outlet, with "built-in" surge protection are utterly useless in worst case scenarios and most likely a waste of money. As the supposedly "good ones"/ brand name products don't come exactly cheap.

If the isolated, one-time, event happens again - contact the utility and/or qualified electrician to determine the cause.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Packard]

Eaton makes industrial controls specific to motors.  It is less likely that they make systems for residential use.  But they have some information on their website:
https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/digital/brightlayer/brightlayer-industrial-suite.html?source=post:1549084323806831305&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA-P-rBhBEEiwAQEXhHx6-S7W4J-BZCsiWpc_JOsFI5QUuiMn48HTROJk4ACSK_PaaSvhTwBoCR28QAvD_BwE

They do have a “support” link.  Perhaps they can provide a consumer-oriented division of Eaton. 

They used to be a customer of mine, and they have many, many divisions.  Trying to find the appropriate division to contact seems daunting to me.  So assistance from Support would be helpful. 

Note:  Their industrial versions are probably in the thousands of dollars range and possibly way up in that range.  Smaller, less expensive systems would probably make sense. 

They do supply a lot of information and I have only glanced at it.  Our company made mechanical components for their switching gear (also mechanical).  Apparently, there is still a place for mechanical switching gear.  I would have thought that they would all be digital.

 

[Cheese]

Derek, I've noticed a very interesting change in the dialogue over the last several years when it comes to LED lighting. There have recently been several manufacturers that have released surge protection devices to be used specifically for LED devices. I find it interesting that the LED's were initially offered for sale naked while the surge protection devices are now offered as "protection".

Both Littelfuse and Meanwell (famous for their LED drivers) have recently offered SPD (surge protection devices) to add to LED circuits.

So where is this going? LED's are nothing more than semiconductor devices and if they are highly susceptible to voltage transients then so will any other semiconductor device in the electrical path. I plan on installing some manner of surge protection within the main electrical panel to protect all of those low level but vulnerable electrical items that are part of our everyday curriculum.

 

[mino]

Derek, I've noticed a very interesting change in the dialogue over the last several years when it comes to LED lighting. There have recently been several manufacturers that have released surge protection devices to be used specifically for LED devices. I find it interesting that the LED's were initially offered for sale naked while the surge protection devices are now offered as "protection".
...

This is even worse than that.

There are LOTs of LED "drivers" on the market which are no drivers (as in proper current-limiting DC power sources) at all and operate directly on mains voltage (110V or 230V) without any real voltage conversion to speak of.
What they do is they just put enough LEDs in a row to match the AC voltage, add a very simple capacitor-diode circuit and here ya go. Profit! To further save on costs, these are often driven at voltages close to the LEDs maximum to get a higher brightness spec.

The problem with these "things" and any voltage spikes is they cannot handle them. At all. LEDs absolutely hate over-voltage. Even +20% can kill them easily. Should have never got through to the consumers. But they do en masse. And they do die en masse as well. This race-to-the-bottom situation then creates a "market" for protection devices which do what the LED drivers or sane design are doing in the first place.

Plus, even for proper LED drivers there is a huge price-focus where they are a commodity by now.

Quality LED lighting is 3-10x the (manufacturing) cost of a race-to-the-bottom one. And people generally are not willing to pay for it. The way I see it even the reputable makers are eventually gonna start skimping it and "recommending aka requiring" protection devices. It makes it more visible to customers who -will- pay for a protection device but will not pay $30 for "that same-looking-one" when there is one next to it for $20 "at same specs".

Until someone like UL etc. does not step forward with some stricter/certification requirements I do not see this getting better.

None is related to FT as too messy voltage will kill even the best design.

 

[Packard]

You can call customer service at your electric company and see if there is some sort fo diagnostic equipment that they use for this sort of recurring problem.

In the back of my mind I seem to recall that something does exist, and that the utility company tries to find if there is something awry with the delivery of the electricity.

At the worst case they can say there is nothing they can do.

Our electric company sells equipment at lower cost than is available elsewhere. It is probably worth a call.

 

[Coen]

You can call customer service at your electric company and see if there is some sort fo diagnostic equipment that they use for this sort of recurring problem.

In the back of my mind I seem to recall that something does exist, and that the utility company tries to find if there is something awry with the delivery of the electricity.

At the worst case they can say there is nothing they can do.

Our electric company sells equipment at lower cost than is available elsewhere. It is probably worth a call.

Don't know about the US, but here it's often... if you claim there is something wrong, they can install a monitor. But if it turns out there is nothing wrong with the grid... you have to pay for it.

 

[Packard]

I believe that is a possibility.  Or they will charge you for the labor only.  But a phone call will resolve that question. 

If it turns out that the delivery of the electricity is at fault, then they would be responsible for the equipment repairs.