VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700

[pdeboer2]

In searching the internet for jigs, I've come across a forum post describing that someone was denied warranty service because they used the RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700 from Seneca Woodworking. It was an older post, and I've lost it now, but I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this. I've emailed Festool 3 times and can't get a straight answer.

I have a 700 and would love to use it with the 500's cutters, but don't want to void my warranty

Link to the adapter:https://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/rts-500-cutter-adapter-for-festool-df700

Thanks,

 

[AlexThePalex]

It is well known here on the forum Festool will void the warranty for using 3rd party accessories. It is not a rule set in stone, but they can if they want to.

In case of the Seneca adapter, it could change the forces that work on the machine, so you go beyond the factory specs the tool was designed for.

But then again, if you don't tell Festool you're using the 3rd party accessory, how will they ever know?

Of course now you've posted here they will be looking out for a P. De Boer claiming warranty on his DF700.  [wink]

 

[rvieceli]

What Alex said.  [big grin]

If I recall correctly, the incident you are referring was in the UK and the customer sent in the 700 for repair with the Seneca adapter still installed on the machine. Most manufacturers have a rich history and tradition of denying warranty repairs when third party components are installed.

Ron

 

[Svar]

You don't put extra stress on the machine using RTS-500. The risk here is accidentally using deep (>30 mm) setting with a small diameter (DF500) bit and plunging wider shank into the wood. This should void warranty and rightly so.

 

[ChuckM]

No worries. If confronted, just tell them you are in fact pdeboer1 or pdeboer3. [tongue]

 

[TinyShop]

Actually, based on a discussion from a couple of years ago elsewhere on this forum, it's against the law (in the U.S.) for a manufacturer to deny a warranty claim based on the customer using a third parrty accessory. Spend a little time searching the forum and you will find the relevant discussion.

 

[Svar]

it's against the law (in the U.S.) for a manufacturer to deny a warranty claim based on the customer using a third parrty accessory.

I'm sure its more nuanced than that. One could devise something truly damaging, call it an "accessory" and stick the tool manufacturer with the bill.

 

[peter halle]

I am sure that Festool’s legal counsel has helped them author their warranties and that they feel on solid ground if they do indeed decide not cover a warranty repair if the repair is neccisitated by the use of a non-Festool accessory.

Peter

 

[Gregor]

not cover a warranty repair if the repair is neccisitated by the use of a non-Festool accessory.

That's the point. Using an accessory that lead to breaking the tool voiding warranty is perfectly reasonable.

But as companies decided that denying warranty because the user used a 3rd party accessory (regardless of that being the cause of the defect) was a general good idea to spare them costs... this particular law was needed to keep them somewhat honest (or less evil, depending on perspective).

So while Festool could try to claim that the seneca adapter caused the tool to malfunction they are should better be able to prove this in court, should someone with enough money for a good lawyer decide to call them on this assertion.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

It is well known here on the forum Festool will void the warranty for using 3rd party accessories. It is not a rule set in stone, but they can if they want to.

This has already been covered. It is a violation of the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act for a manufacturer to void a warranty solely on the basis of aftermarket accessories, unless those accessories can be shown to have caused the damage.

In case of the Seneca adapter, it could change the forces that work on the machine, so you go beyond the factory specs the tool was designed for.

Nope. The RTS-500 adapter does not alter the forces on the drivetrain in a negative manner. Quite the opposite, because it is intended to allow the DF700 to use the smaller diameter DF500 cutters, it actually reduces the forces and stress on the DF700 drivetrain.

 

[TinyShop]

That's it - thanks [member=191]Rick Christopherson[/member]!

 

[Svar]

If you put a 6 mm bit into DF700 with RTS-500 adapter, set the depth to say 45 mm, and for obvious reasons break the machine, the warranty will be voided and Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act will not apply.

 

[greg mann]

This is a situation where both Rick and Svar can be correct. A smaller cutter will not stress
the machine and it would be difficult to argue against that. Misusing the same smaller cutter is a different matter.

This could conceivably be comparable to a router where using a non-Festool router bit in a 1010 should not and would not void the warranty. Putting a reducing sleeve in a 2200 and using a smaller bit would also not be a problem, but come up with some way to put a 3 inch panel raiser with a half inch shank in a 1010 and you got a problem.

 

[peter halle]

At at the end of the day in the case of a tool failure that may have had an accessory in use, the decisions to be made are far outside of this forum and everyone's analysis and commentary here will be meaningless - including mine.

Peter

Here is the official warranty statement from Festool USA that covers items here:

"Conditions of the SERVICE ALL INCLUSIVE® Limited Warranty are as follows:

This warranty applies for 3 years from the date of original retail purchase. Proof of purchase is required. This warranty is void if the tool is not used, operated, repaired and maintained in accordance with the tool's instruction manual.

Excluded from this warranty's coverage are:

Accessories and/or attachments, including, but not limited to, saw blades, drill bits, router bits, sanding discs and apparel
Tools purchased from outside of the U.S. or Canada
Repairs or replacements not performed by an authorized Festool Service Center, outside of routine maintenance as set forth in the instruction manual
Parts or components not supplied by Festool or that have been modified
Damage caused by misuse, abuse, accident, impact, abnormal wear and tear, improper storage and/or exposure to the elements, or neglect
Normal adjustments and recommended maintenance as set forth in the tool's instruction manual
Damage from the operation of the tool at a voltage or frequency different from the tool's rating, including the use of transformers
Damage resulting from the use of any non-FESTOOL accessories or attachments
Should any failure covered by this Limited Warranty occur, the purchaser must contact Festool through our website, www.festoolusa.com/sai or call 888-337-8600 for authorization and shipping information. Festool, in its sole discretion, may elect to repair, replace or refund the purchase price of any tool covered by this Limited Warranty that is found to be defective, at no cost to the purchaser. Warranty returns will be processed by Festool according to normal work flow and availability of replacement parts and components. Festool will issue a prepaid shipping label for return of the tool to the Festool Service Center and will also return the repaired tool freight prepaid, if the repair or replacement is covered under this Limited Warranty.

FESTOOL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES REGARDLESS OF THE THEORY OF LAW ON WHICH THE CLAIM IS BASED. ALL WARRANTIES IMPLIED BY STATE LAW, INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE HEREBY LIMITED TO THE DURATION OF THREE YEARS.

SOME STATES IN THE U.S. AND SOME CANADIAN PROVINCES DO NOT ALLOW EXCLUSIONS/LIMITATIONS OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES AND/OR LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM STATE TO STATE IN THE U.S. AND FROM PROVINCE TO PROVINCE IN CANADA.

With the exception of any warranties implied by state or province law as limited above, the foregoing limited warranty is exclusive and in lieu of all other warranties, guarantees, agreements, and similar obligations of Festool. No agent, representative, distributor, dealer, or employee of Festool has the authority to increase or otherwise modify the obligations or limitations of this warranty."

 

[Svar]

This is a situation where both Rick and Svar can be correct. A smaller cutter will not stress
the machine and it would be difficult to argue against that. Misusing the same smaller cutter is a different matter.

From the point of view of Seneca it's misuse, for Festool it's failure caused by the accessory.
RTS-500 could have been made 40 mm shorter (if there is room for it), such that you can't plunge DF500 bits deeper than 30 mm.

 

[DeformedTree]

The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act is something that anyone who buys objects in the US should understand. It's very powerful law.  If you compare it to Festools Warranty statements you will find areas where Festool is saying things that the Act says "no no no" too.  In general the issue is lack of enforcement, and from time to time the government wakes up and sends some warnings out to companies who have began to forget about the Act.  "warranty void is sticker broke" is something just in the last year or so they went after a bunch of companies about.

Trying to use the Act to support your claim can be a real issue. You may be technically correct (the best kind of correct), but you as an individual don't have much of a means to enforce your being correct unless you got money, lawyers and want to prove a point. This is what happens in a lot of cases, a company angers the wrong person and a court case happens.

When it comes to 3rd part parts. The prime concept in the act is that if you replace a part in something with a perfectly equivalent part then they can't void the warranty.  So say the alternator on your VW dies.  You don't have to go to VW dealer and have them replace it, nor do you have to buy the VW replacement part.  You can go to the autoparts store and buy what they sell you that has been affirmed to be an equivalent and undergone some checks by the 3rd party alternator company to be a suitable replacement part.  This will not void warranty.  But if you go into the autoparts store and buy the Alternator for a Ford F-650 and jam it in there, modify some stuff, etc to make it happen, then yes, VW could void your warranty.  So there is a grey area to it, when have you gone too far or not made a reasonable effort.

For add on parts, that is even more grey area, and something that the aftermarket parts industry has had to deal with several times. In the end, a lot of it comes down to the manufacture (say VW) has to show that adding said accessory part (say a giant wing on the trunk), in some way caused the issue the vehicle is having (say the alternator failed).  You can come up with "a way" for almost anything, but it would be hard for their claim to stand. But if you put a giant wing on, and then the trunk latch, hinge failed, or it rusted thru where you drilled holes, their claim is valid.

So with something like this adapter, it falls solidly in the grey area.  It's an add on, not a replacement part. So that shifts things in Festools favor, but they still have to show it is somehow more damaging than not using it. I would  need to see more to understand, and you can probably start going down things like "balance of shaft" and so forth to make a case it caused the issue.  I won't say who would be right on this particular one. Keep in mind the word of the 3rd party seller is not the best one to base things on.

As mentioned though, the real answer is never tell Festool you used the adapter, do not mention it, certainly don't contact them and ask, and never send it in with the adapter.  As long as you never show what you did, they would have no basis to know what you did.  You don't return the rental/hire car back and tell them about your track day with it, or the air you got over the speed bump, or the sounds it makes at red line, you turn it in, walk away, and it's up to them to ever show you did something to it.

The spirit in of the Act is largely about good faith and being decent.  If you know you did something you shouldn't have with a product, don't go trying to get them to fix it for free, admit you messed up. And at the same time if the product failed and maybe they are just beyond the warranty or maybe was an accidentally mistake by the owner, do a solid and fix it even though you don't have to and or don't try going to void the warranty when the person make some solid proper attempts at fixing something.

 

[Birdhunter]

I guess I am a bit old fashioned. If I break a tool using it in the wrong fashion (extender for example) I will not lie to the manufacturer to save a few bucks on repair. My honor is far more important to me.

 

[greg mann]

I guess I am a bit old fashioned. If I break a tool using it in the wrong fashion (extender for example) I will not lie to the manufacturer to save a few bucks on repair. My honor is far more important to me.

This. And the last paragraph above it are the essence of the matter. It is unclear to me what the original failure mode was to the machine in question. Say, for example, the trigger switch failed and you sent the machine in repair with the adapter on it. It would be perfectly reasonable for the user to expect the switch to be fixed, and perfectly reasonable for Festiol to include a note that the use of the adapter is not approved and could void a warranty if it was determined its use contributed to a failure. As stated above, a user should take responsibility for how the use or misuse a tool. It is all about good faith both ways.

 

[sancho57]

im with Greg and Birdhunter. I find honesty is the best policy.

If read that read policy correctly, the after market tool must not BE THE CAUSE for the failure.
So depending on the type of damage the OP has will determine wether the after market accessory cause it.

If it did cause it, then man up take the hit and go on.

 

[Mario Turcot]

I have been waiting a long long time to quote [member=5277]Alex[/member] and today he opened the door and a barn door with that  [eek]

But then again, if you don't tell Festool you're using the 3rd party accessory, how will they ever know?

By leaving the third part accessory attached to the tool when sending for repair  [tongue]

P.S. Alex, I seriously thank you for your thoughtful insight on questions people have on the FOG.