What is the ideal nail length for 18 gauge brad nailer for crown on top of cabs?

[Grasshopper]

First, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

I'm getting ready to install 3 5/8" poplar crown on top of my kitchen cabinets.  They will only be attached from the bottom as I don't have a soffit above the cabinets.

I plan to use my 18 gauge brad nailer to nail the crown in place against the face frame of the cabinets (I am building up the face frame with some 1/2" poplar so there is more area for the crown to rest on).

My question is, what length of nail should I use?  the crown where I will fire through is around 3/8", and the face frame is 3/4".  If I go with a 3/4" nail, it would sink 1/2 way into the face frame.  I'm concerned that firing 3/8" into the 3/4" frame won't be enough bite.  If I use a 1" nail, it would probably blowout through the back of the frame a little.

Also, I was on the fence about using my 16 gauge nailer instead, but I think 18 gauge is the right size for this task.

(I plan to preassemble as much of the miters on the ground using a template like Gary Katz recommends.  I thought I would try and join the miters using only glue and possibly spring clamps such as collins miter spring pliers vs. tacking them together with a nail and glue.  I'm open to feedback for the best way to do this).

 

[mastercabman]

18g is what I use
1"-1.25" will do

 

[Grasshopper]

Awesome.  Thanks!!!

18g is what I use
1"-1.25" will do

 

[shaun.mcc]

I think the rule-of-thumb is 2 to 2.5 times the thickness of what your fastening...at least that sounds good.

Shaun

 

[Grasshopper]

I thought I'd bump this thread and see what you guys do when the cabinet uppers aren't totally level (the bubble is kissing the edge for sure on the level).

After removing the old crown on top of the cabs, I threw a laser level line up and saw about 1/4" rise on the long section of my cabinets, and possible worse across the kitchen.  I never noticed before, but I think the original crown was not level, and just followed the contour of the cabinets.

My uppers are 42" and my new doors will be 41".  The crown will be mounted taking up 3/4" of the face frame up top, leaving 1/4" in the best case for reveals top and bottom.

If I wanted the crown to be level, I'd need to build a base on top of the cabinets.  If I cheat the crown and just follow the contour of the uppers, I don't think it would be noticeable and would save a bunch of time.

What would y'all do?

 

[tjbnwi]

Follow the door line. As long as the doors and crown are parallel no one will ever notice the pitch of the cabinets.

Tom

 

[deepcreek]

Given your situation, I'd probably cheat it as long as it isn't just terrible.  Even if it is, I doubt anyone will will notice unless you point it out.

Of course if it was my house, it would drive me crazy and I would end up remodeling the whole kitchen.

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks Tom.  This makes me feel much better!

I think I will try to preassemble as much crown on the ground as I can and dry fit following the door line to see how it looks.  Your advice makes perfect sense!!!

Follow the door line. As long as the doors and crown are parallel no one will ever notice the pitch of the cabinets.

Tom

 

[Grasshopper]

I love it!  [big grin]

I had a flash where I though, OK all these uppers are coming out. 

Then reality hit that I am on #2 of the 15+ honey do list and I had to brace myself.

Given your situation, I'd probably cheat it as long as it isn't just terrible.  Even if it is, I doubt anyone will will notice unless you point it out.

Of course if it was my house, it would drive me crazy and I would end up remodeling the whole kitchen.

 

[Johnny5]

Preassembly is a good move.  Much easier to align corners on a work bench than 8' in the air. 

I use the Titebond "no run, no drip" trim glue and Collins clamps.  If its a dark color (pretty much anything darker than the wood) be sure to back stain the leading edge of the cut with the same (or close) color. This will help hide any imperfections with the alignment.  I also like to dampen the glue surfaces first.  This will give you a little more open time with the glue, and i feel it makes it easier squish out the excess to get the joint nice and tight (the glue won't dry and thicken against the wood as quickly). Let the glue set for an hour or so and you shouldn't need any nails in the corner. 

Cut some blocks of 1x scrap, loop some masking tape on the back of them and stick them to the ends of the cabinet run at approx the crown height to support the returns while aligning the front.  I use 1" 23 gauge pins to attach.  As long as the corners are glued, 23g pins are plenty.  If it's just a straight run, then 1" 18g should suffice. 

IMO, always follow the cabinets for alignment.

 

[Grasshopper]

Great advice Johnny5 (love the username).

I actually picked up some Collins spring clamps last week, they are amazing.  Glad to hear they work well. 

Fortunately I am painting, so glue color won't be as important.  I had planned to use titebond 2, but I should check out the no run no drip version.  Also great tip on damping the wood first.

I will definitely be using the tip of sticking some 1x scrap as supports while I install.  Or maybe I can try out my CT wings that Santa brought me

Preassembly is a good move.  Much easier to align corners on a work bench than 8' in the air. 

I use the Titebond "no run, no drip" trim glue and Collins clamps.  If its a dark color (pretty much anything darker than the wood) be sure to back stain the leading edge of the cut with the same (or close) color. This will help hide any imperfections with the alignment.  I also like to dampen the glue surfaces first.  This will give you a little more open time with the glue, and i feel it makes it easier squish out the excess to get the joint nice and tight (the glue won't dry and thicken against the wood as quickly). Let the glue set for an hour or so and you shouldn't need any nails in the corner. 

Cut some blocks of 1x scrap, loop some masking tape on the back of them and stick them to the ends of the cabinet run at approx the crown height to support the returns while aligning the front.  I use 1" 23 gauge pins to attach.  As long as the corners are glued, 23g pins are plenty.  If it's just a straight run, then 1" 18g should suffice. 

IMO, always follow the cabinets for alignment.

 

[Grasshopper]

I forgot to ask if you have any tips regarding pre-assembly.

I was told that I should use some scrap 1/8" board and physically draw a template of where the crown will layout.  Then using 1x or other scrap, build a backer along the drawn lines.  Doing so, I could pre-assemble on the ground in sections and know there would be a good fit.

This method makes sense, but it does seem like it would take extra time.

Any other methods y'all use are appreciated.

 

[Johnny5]

I haven't used the template method.  Sounds like it would work well but also adds a bit of work.  I just measure carefully and hold the pieces up individually to check fit, then shave off little bits to sneak up on the perfect cut.  Number them if you have multiples of a similar size.  I'll cut the returns a bit long initially so I have some room to scribe to the wall if need be.  On longer pieces that I'm unable to check both ends simultaneously, I'll sometimes tack the pice up with a 23g on one end, then check fit on the other.  Sometimes it works to lay the long pieces on their back on top of the cab and align the mitres (little more difficult to get right this way, but possible if nothing else is working), or the template method may be best for long pieces.  I'll have to try the template next time job......

 

[deepcreek]

Buy Gary Katz's DVD on mastering crown molding.  Money well spent.

http://garymkatz.com/DVDs/CCM.html

 

[Grasshopper]

I actually own this dvd. It is great. It is through this DVD that I got the idea to pre-assemble crown to begin with. Gary's method is to use a 90 degree jig (per the video).

What he doesn't demonstrate is how to pre-assemble non 90 degree angles or more complicated sections.

This is the root of my question, which is asking what Foggers actually do in the field to pre-assemble cabinet crown. For example, my cabinet layout has a 90 degree outside corner to a flat section into a 45 degree inside corner, and later another 45 degree inside corner. I'd like to pre-assemble this whole section and am not exactly sure the best way to accomplish that.

Hopefully that makes sense.

I'm all ears

Buy Gary Katz's DVD on mastering crown molding.  Money well spent.

http://garymkatz.com/DVDs/CCM.html

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks Johnny5.

I haven't used the template method.  Sounds like it would work well but also adds a bit of work.  I just measure carefully and hold the pieces up individually to check fit, then shave off little bits to sneak up on the perfect cut.  Number them if you have multiples of a similar size.  I'll cut the returns a bit long initially so I have some room to scribe to the wall if need be.  On longer pieces that I'm unable to check both ends simultaneously, I'll sometimes tack the pice up with a 23g on one end, then check fit on the other.  Sometimes it works to lay the long pieces on their back on top of the cab and align the mitres (little more difficult to get right this way, but possible if nothing else is working), or the template method may be best for long pieces.  I'll have to try the template next time job......

 

[deepcreek]

I normally work crown molding clockwise in a room but for this situation I would make an exception.

Instead, I would start at the diagonal corner cabinet.  Cut one scrap of crown with a right 45-degree inside corner (22.5) and another scrap with a left 45-degree inside corner (22.5).  Now cut a piece with both ends at a 45-degree inside corner and hold it in place using the two scraps to make sure it is the perfect length.  If not, shorten it if it's too long or make another if it is too short.  Once you have this correct, pin it in place using the two scraps to confirm alignment.

Next I would cut an extra long piece and get a helper to mark back side of the left end against the cabinet while you are holding the 45-degree inside corner in perfect alignment.  Now cut the outside corner on the left end and use a scrap with the opposing angle to make sure you have that right.

I only build my outside corners on the ground after making sure they are going to fit.  I cope my inside corners unless they are something other than 90-degrees.

Does this make sense?

 

[Grasshopper]

Joe,

Thanks for your thorough response.  I thought It would help it I sketched the layout of my kitchen cabinet uppers and see if it helps, or would alter your approach.

I initially thought i'd pre-assemble 3 sections (the colors represent the sections i thought made sense to pre-assemble).  I am totally open to doing it a different way as well.  The 90 degree angles are pretty much 90's.  one of the 45 degree angles is probably closer to a 44.

[attachimg=1]

 

[deepcreek]

Important question - Does the crown terminate on either end of the cabinets or continue around the other two sides of the room?

 

[Grasshopper]

Great question.  The crown just terminates with a butt cut into the wall on both sides where where the cabinet sides are exposed. 

The crown will be freestanding on the cabs as well as there will be around 9 inches from the top of the crown to the ceiling as open space.

Important question - Does the crown terminate on either end of the cabinets or continue around the other two sides of the room?