What - non Festool - tool / workshop related gizmo/stuff did you buy today?

[WastedP]

The best stainless steel is not on par with the best carbon steel for tooling, tools, or knives. It is a compromise manufacturers make to attain corrosion resistance.

In many instances, that compromise makes total sense.

For jigsaw blades? It does not.

I would contend that it does if you're cutting fish steaks.  I know hunting guides that run pack strings in wilderness areas, and they swear by DeWalt recip saws for quartering elk.  I would guess they're using stainless blades, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Cheese]

Packard...this thread you're pulling apart deals strictly with using stainless saw blades for cutting meat...no mention of cutting plastics or wood. I've used stainless blades for cutting frozen tenderloins and then I can package the remains back in to the freezer without remorse.  If you want to cut frozen tenderloins or fish with steel blades and suffer any of the concomitant consequences, feel free, let me know how it goes.

I think there are a lot of hunter/gatherers that view this message board and the initial notification was just meant as a general notice that there are hygienically clean methods available for dismembering game animals in the field. I'm not one that partakes in that element, but I'll not allow my personal limitations to limit someone else's interests and pursuits.

However...when it comes to me freely ranting about the abysmal performance of most Dewalt products...well that's another story.

 

[Lincoln]

Metabo 18v cordless caulking gun. First cordless one I've had, looking forward to giving it a run on my bathroom renovation.

 

[bobtskutter]

Been working on this router table addon for my Sawstop PCS the past few weeks time permitting:

That looks like a work of art.  It's almost a shame to hide that router motor and lift in a black box under the table.

Bob

 

[Packard]

Packard...this thread you're pulling apart deals strictly with using stainless saw blades for cutting meat...no mention of cutting plastics or wood. I've used stainless blades for cutting frozen tenderloins and then I can package the remains back in to the freezer without remorse.  If you want to cut frozen tenderloins or fish with steel blades and suffer any of the concomitant consequences, feel free, let me know how it goes.

I think there are a lot of hunter/gatherers that view this message board and the initial notification was just meant as a general notice that there are hygienically clean methods available for dismembering game animals in the field. I'm not one that partakes in that element, but I'll not allow my personal limitations to limit someone else's interests and pursuits.

However...when it comes to me freely ranting about the abysmal performance of most Dewalt products...well that's another story.

I was specifically addressing the sharpness and durability of the blades.  As I mentioned in the Gillette example, there are sometimes reasons where another property of the metal trumps the normal criteria.

As an interesting example of that, I worked for a company that made millions and millions of wire handles for plastic 5 gallon shipping containers. These handles had a plastic grip and were produced from galvanized steel wire.  At that time, they cost about 6-1/2 cents each.

We also had a small customer that bought the same handle without the plastic grip and made from non-sparking phosphor bronze wire.  Those handles cost about $2.00 each.

By conventional standards these seemed inferior to the galvanized wire + plastic grips.  But this customer made equipment for mine safety, where volatile gases presented scary danger to the miners.  The bronze wire would not spark when struck by stones or steel, and as a result would not spark an explosion. 

The customer also supplied sledge hammers made from bronze.  By most criteria, it was inferior to a sledge with a forged head.  It was not as hard as the steel version, and if you struck a spike on the edge of the face it was brittle enough to chip.  But the overriding criteria was that it was non-sparking.  They were surprisingly expensive (over $1,000.00), but worth it in that specific task.

So stainless blades might make sense for food processing, but not for woodworking.

(Do butchers’ bandsaws use stainless steel blades?  How do they sanitize the blades?  What about all the bits of animal flesh that carries onto the drive wheels?)

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] forklift manufacturers also offer bronze forks for exactly the same reason. There’s a UK company called ‘Pyroban’ who totally rework equipment so that it’s 100% spark-free and presents zero source of ignition. They also fit specialised cutoff systems to engines so that they won’t go into runaway if they happen to suck flammable vapour into their air intakes. It’s all very interesting. Everything they build is crazy-expensive - but cheaper than a mine or refinery explosion with potential accompanying loss of life.

 

[Ron B]

When Iraq invaded Kuwait (1990-91?) they set Kuwait's oil wells on fire to create chaos.  I remember a Texan outfit put out a number of those fires and all of their wrenches, hammers, all the tools were brass or bronze.  If that didn't work, they used dynamite so the shock wave would separate the escaping gas from the fire. 

 

[Alanbach]

I have a Greene Tweed #3 Defense Hammer that I picked up at an antique tool event somewhere back in time. It too is bronze and spark proof.

 

[Cheese]

Do butchers’ bandsaws use stainless steel blades?  How do they sanitize the blades?  What about all the bits of animal flesh that carries onto the drive wheels?

Yes they do...here's a Starrett 4 TPI hook profile that would fit my bandsaw. Actually I'm surprised at how inexpensive it is considering it's stainless.

As far as cleaning goes, I've watched the local butcher clean his bandsaw and all he used was a lot of hot water from a spray hose. He just sprayed everything down, it was messy.  [smile]
https://www.starrett.com/details?cat-no=94321-07-09-1/2

 

[Packard]

Do butchers’ bandsaws use stainless steel blades?  How do they sanitize the blades?  What about all the bits of animal flesh that carries onto the drive wheels?

Yes they do...here's a Starrett 4 TPI hook profile that would fit my bandsaw. Actually I'm surprised at how inexpensive it is considering it's stainless.

As far as cleaning goes, I've watched the local butcher clean his bandsaw and all he used was a lot of hot water from a spray hose. He just sprayed everything down, it was messy.  [smile]
https://www.starrett.com/details?cat-no=94321-07-09-1/2

At $20.00 each, it does seem cheap, but with the 24 piece ($480.00) it does require a good bit of cash.

The ease at which a bandsaw cuts meat, brings home the need to respect the machine, which seems (to me) safer to use than a table saw.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Stainless steel is just as vague of a term as Aluminum.

Quite right, buddy. Europe's largest steelmaker (ArcelorMittal) makes stainless in 341 different grades. The only one I ever use is #316 for screws going into super-acidic Accoya wood and countersunk allen-headed machine screws for stuff like exterior glass balustrade panels. I haven't a clue what the other 340 are used for.

Spaceships, probably.

Yeah Kevin, the average person never comes into contact with most of them. Around here, you can also get 304. It has slightly less Chromium, nickel, and lacks the molybdenum totally. It performs pretty similarly, is slightly less corrosion resistant, at a lower cost.
I would guess that some of the others are adapted for specific properties, like casting, draw/forming, etc

I see and use far more different types of Aluminum.
It is the same way. The stuff you can cast is not weldable, some is very easy to form, the heat treatable types take polishing the best, they also machine better. The soft alloys are so gooey that they are hard to cut.

 

[Packard]

Most good knives are made from 400 series stainless, as is most flatware (inexpensive knives, forks, spoons, etc.)

“Stainless” is, by and large, a malaprop. A better descriptor would be “corrosion-resisting”, though there are some grades that would qualify for “stainless” (“monel” comes to mind).

Most flatware, if left in a tray of water will get tiny specks of rust.  Typically, the rust will wash away in the next cycle of your dishwasher. Most of us have good enough housekeeping practices that we never see those rust spots.

 

[squall_line]

Most flatware, if left in a tray of water will get tiny specks of rust.  Typically, the rust will wash away in the next cycle of your dishwasher. Most of us have good enough housekeeping practices that we never see those rust spots.

I still have one or two butter knives whose edges are chipped from rusting away from my younger days when my housekeeping practices were not very good.  That bungalow's dishwasher had two hands, two feet, and very few cares in the world.

 

[Packard]

I learned, while sharing a house with three of my friends after graduating from college, that automation trumps hand craftsmanship when it comes to dishwashing.

In fact, our hand craftsmanship was so appalling in that regard, we would have been just as well off eating from the plates and then just putting the plates back in the cabinets unwashed.

I don’t recall having taken a dish from the cabinet and not washing it before I used it.

But back to my earlier post, 400 series stainless steel, of which there are many varieties, will get an occasional spot of rust, not much larger than a speck of dust.  You can generally rub it off with a towel, or let your automated dishwasher take care of it.

My point is that stainless steel is rarely 100% rust proof.

 

[Cheese]

My favorite metal working materials (other than gold  [blink]) are stainless and aluminum. I can't remember purchasing a different metal in the last 10 years other than some small quantities of copper and brass.

Why?  Because both of those materials are resistant to corrosion. Once machined, I can revisit that particular item 10 years from now and it will still be free from contamination. No painting...no oiling...no hard chroming...just machine the material and let it live.

Unfortunately, we've all been brought up accepting steel as the metal of choice because of its cost and of its ease of workability. I can't argue with either of those virtues. But I hate the fact that once the "real" work is finished with steel, additional steps then need to be taken to prevent it from rusting. I hate the rusting aspect of steel and that's the single most annoying characteristic of the material that drives me away from using that material. Corten on the other hand is an exception and is my material of choice for outdoor projects.  [big grin]

So, metal machinability scales are based on steel being used as the standard as are some tooling guidance references. Unfortunately, the tooling used in machining stainless and aluminum is significantly different than that used in machining steel. The speeds and feeds are different, the cutting lubricants are different, the drills are different, everything changes when machining stainless or aluminum...it's just an entirely different ball game.

And to counter Packard's last point...stainless can be 100% rust proof, Nitronic is used for propellor shafts for large sea going vessels.

 

[Packard]

I was not familiar with Nitronic stainless steel. Thankfully my good friend, Google, knew all about it.
https://www.hpalloy.com/Alloys/descriptions/NITRONIC60.aspx

It appears that its most valued property is its resistance to galling.  That might be the overriding consideration for the propeller shafts.  “Galling” is the tendency for stainless steel to weld itself onto tooling when cold worked. 

For example, if you wanted to make stainless steel pots or pans (for cooking) you would cold press (stamp, deep draw) the sheets of stainless over a form.  The combination of heat generated by the process and and pressure allows the sheet steel to weld minute areas onto the tooling.  The result is that additional production would have deep scratches on the surface from the small bits that have welded themselves onto the tooling.

Rotating shafts might also create an environment for galling.

It does not appear that Nitronic is significantly more corrosion resistant that any number of variants of 316 stainless, which I always understood to be the gold standard for corrosion resistance.

But good information to know.

Also, aluminum does “rust”, that is there is created a layer of aluminum oxide, often called “white rust” as it appears as a white powdery substance.  Like Corr-ten, it is self-inhibiting.  That is once a layer of “rust” develops, no further rust will continue unless you polish away the rust and expose fresh material.

The big complaint about aluminum storm windows and storm doors in the beginning, was the appearance of the white rust.  Anodizing the aluminum solved that problem.

With the popularity of 3D printing, I am a bit surprised that amateur investment casting has not followed hard on its heels.  Once the 3D printer is obtained, only a furnace that can melt metal (stainless is often used, but investment casting is big in the jewelry industry).

It is also called “lost wax method”, and is a form of sand casting.   

The big hit on sand casting, is that the sand mold can crumble so only crude shapes can be made. 

With investment casting, the wax “male” is left in place in the sand mold.  The molten metal vaporizes the wax and the wax is “lost”.  Very precise shapes can be made by this method, though the process is usually limited to fairly small pieces. 

I only watched a few minutes of the video below.  It shows the method of investment casting.  It’s emphasis seems to be jewelry making—that is small pieces.  Most stainless steel handguns are made with extensive use of investment casting.  Those are the largest pieces I am familiar with that are made by the process.

In the 1980s, AMT made a .380 automatic handgun entirely made from investment cast pieces with no post casting machining.  The pieces were used “as cast”, a testament to the precision that method allows.

https://www.hpalloy.com/Alloys/descriptions/NITRONIC60.aspx

 

[Cheese]

I was not familiar with Nitronic stainless steel. Thankfully my good friend, Google, knew all about it.

Well if you want to really get serious about stainless, here's the best in the business, at least it was 25 years ago.  [smile]

This stuff smokes Nitronic for both corrosion resistance and strength. It's a proprietary product from SPS Technologies called MP35N. It's produced in limited quantities (at least it was 25 years ago) so you have to get your order in to receive your yearly allocation.  [huh]  Every lot of material is individually serial numbered for traceability.

I was looking at this material for producing bust disc diaphragms. Here are a couple of MP35N fasteners that were left over from the chemical testing that I had done.

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[rst]

Lost wax casting was big with model makers, especially trains. Brass and pot metal being used extensively. English Model Railroading made pieces like this. I live 30 minutes from there store( now closed as most sales are no internet). I got to see first hand the process as one of the owners was also a soccer coach and I had planned a layout based on pre 1930 short and main rails in the Williamsport area.

 

[Packard]

Handgun manufacturing history is an interesting picture of the evolution of manufacturing in stainless steel.

When Smith & Wesson came out with the stainless steel J-frame (snub nose revolver) it cost three times the amount that the carbon steel version did. 

That was because the casting had to be significantly over-sized to allow forging.  Machining stainless steel at that time was considered a major obstacle to manufacturing efficiency.  It had to be cut at a slower rate, and it chewed up the high speed steel tooling that was available at that time. 

With the advent of carbide tooling, the cost differential between steel pistols and stainless steel pistols got much smaller.

Investment castings allowed for a cast blank much closer to the finished size.  So the machining time was much less. 

The cost difference between steel and stainless steel handguns is close enough that the choice is primarily based on preference. 

In the late 1970s AMT came out with an all stainless steel compact .380 automatic called the “AMT Backup”.  It further came out that the entire gun (except for the stamped parts) was made by the investment cast process.  To give the gun an appearance of machined parts, they ran the slide through a “Time Saver” wide belt sander. 

The flat sides of the slide got a brushed/machined appearance from the sander.

Counter-intuitively, semi-automatics benefit greatly from manufacturing with looser tolerances.  It improves reliability at the expense of accuracy and trigger feel.

So the gun was properly reliable.

The stamped magazines, far less so.

I had an early production model.  If the bullet could make its way from the magazine to the chamber, it was reliable.  I traded mine in before they came up with a modified magazine that solved the problem.

In any case, I am surprised that the adoption of 3D printers has not led to hame based investment castings. 

 

[six-point socket II]

Hazet Air-Pen.

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Kind regards,
Oliver