What Size Circuit? - Hammer A3-31 Jointer/Planer Or N4400 Bandsaw w/ 4HP Motor

[ben_r_]

So I have seen this topic discussed at a number of different forums around the net and over the years and there is some discrepancy as to what way one should go. Even the different Hammer/Felder reps, resellers and technical assistance resources seem to differ in opinion.

Should the Hammer products running the 4HP motor like the A3-31 jointer/planer combo machine or the N4400 bandsaw (which Im told use the same motor) be run on a 20A or 30A circuit.

I have personally been told by a couple Hammer reps to run my N4400 on a 20A, 220V circuit using 12AWG wire and a 20A breaker and have been doing so for a couple years now and never had any issues. Others have been told that a 30A is required. I have attached an image of the plate on my Hammer N4400 stating 15A draw at 220V. FWIW a max of 15A draw would be 75% of a 20A circuit.

So what do others run theirs on and for those running on a 20A circuit or who used to run on a 20A circuit have you ever had any issues?

 

[rljatl]

I am running a 30 amp circuit for my A3 31 combo machine.

Interesting that your bandsaw says 15 amps and my jointer/planer says 19 amps.  That would seem to explain why you were told to use a 20 amp circuit and the Delaware Hammer technical people told me to use a 30 amp circuit, wouldn't it?

I guess it makes sense that a jointer/planer would draw more amps than a bandsaw?

 

[ben_r_]

I am running a 30 amp circuit for my A3 31 combo machine.

Interesting that your bandsaw says 15 amps and my jointer/planer says 19 amps.  That would seem to explain why you were told to use a 20 amp circuit and the Delaware Hammer technical people told me to use a 30 amp circuit, wouldn't it?

I guess it makes sense that a jointer/planer would draw more amps than a bandsaw?

Yes that would make sense. The only thing that makes me wonder is that I have been planning to buy an A3-31 for some time now and i was told a couple times that the A3-31 and N4400 share the same 4HP motor which would mean they should have the same current draw. Perhaps that information was incorrect and the two actually use different motors. That would kinda suck as I ran the outlet for the A3-31 as a 20A. Guess Ill have to re wire that and run a 30A now. Lame.

I also wonder if they changed the motor too. They might have used the same motor back when I bought my N4400...

 

[Max Fracas]

The documentation that came with my A3/41 includes a sheet that reads:

"Attention!  Maximum upstream protection not to exceed 20A at 3KW (S6-40%) 1x 230V/60Hz." 

I run my machine on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker.

 

[Huxleywood]

I am running a 30 amp circuit for my A3 31 combo machine.

Interesting that your bandsaw says 15 amps and my jointer/planer says 19 amps.  That would seem to explain why you were told to use a 20 amp circuit and the Delaware Hammer technical people told me to use a 30 amp circuit, wouldn't it?

I guess it makes sense that a jointer/planer would draw more amps than a bandsaw?

Yes that would make sense. The only thing that makes me wonder is that I have been planning to buy an A3-31 for some time now and i was told a couple times that the A3-31 and N4400 share the same 4HP motor which would mean they should have the same current draw. Perhaps that information was incorrect and the two actually use different motors. That would kinda suck as I ran the outlet for the A3-31 as a 20A. Guess Ill have to re wire that and run a 30A now. Lame.

I also wonder if they changed the motor too. They might have used the same motor back when I bought my N4400...

The A3-31 has a 4hp motor (3 kw) the N4400 has a ~3 1/3hp motor (2.5kw) which covers the difference in FLA. 

 

[ben_r_]

The documentation that came with my A3/41 includes a sheet that reads:

"Attention!  Maximum upstream protection not to exceed 20A at 3KW (S6-40%) 1x 230V/60Hz." 

I run my machine on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker.

And see its the stuff like this that keeps throwing me off. What year was your A3-41 made and what does the plate on it say?

 

[otis04]

The breaker is intended to protect the wires, not the equipment.  What size wire is the cord, 12 ga 20 amp, 10 ga 30 amp. 

 

[Max Fracas]

[member=58821]ben_r_[/member]

Hope you can read what's on this photo of the data plate.

 

[HAXIT]

My both machines are made in 2016. The plate on my N4400 is 14.7 amp and A3 31 is 19.8 amp. Both machines are running on 20 amp breaker and never had any problem.
Here is the document for N4400

[attachimg=1]

and here is the one came with A3 31.You can see the wiring diagram in the second picture where it shows the breaker box(L1,L2) at the top left hand corner. Under that it said Maximum upstream protection per chart! which is 20amp.

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3] 

 

[rljatl]

"Maximum upstream protection not to exceed 20A at 3KW"

That phrase is confusing to me.  Wouldn't MORE protection mean a lower amp circuit breaker?  Therefore, 15 amp circuit breaker is bad while a 30 amp breaker would be OK?

Maybe Rick can help us sort this out?  [member=191]Rick Christopherson[/member]

 

[HAXIT]

This is the review for A3 26 that I found under e-shop. I do not care about the review but if you go dawn and read the comments, the first comment by Rod Sheridan said he only needs 20 amp for his A3 31. I think but I am not sure that Rod is electrician and I believe he works for felder. He is active under different sites where I am not a member but if someone is, could bring this up for him and to see what would be his answer.

   http://www.makingsplinters.com/2012/08/hammer-a3-26-review/

 

[HAXIT]

If someone is member here might want to ask Rod or invite him here. I am sure that he is using some festool tools anyway. [smile]
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?155620-20amp-machine-on-30-amp-circut

 

[RKA]

There are two factors that can influence the running amp draw under load that aren't mentioned here.  First is the voltage.  If you're seeing 240-245V as opposed to 220V, you'll be pulling less amps.  Second is the spiral cutters put much less load on the motor compared to the straight knives.  There is a video of the A3-31 out there comparing the straight knives to the spiral cutters.  Mostly it covers noise, but they do hook up a meter to show the lower draw as well.  I don't have the link handy unfortunately, but maybe someone can post the link when they find it?

So if you're a  little sketchy about the circuit sizing but you have a stable 240V+ power supply and you're running the spiral cutter head, you'll be well under 20A running load (I think the video showed it might be closer to 12A but my memory isn't all that good).  If you've got 220V and straight knives, maybe you want to spend the extra time dissecting the contradictory information presented here, but still look at that video, I think it might add some clarity about what the machine needs, though I can't recall if they showed the voltage available. 

Edit:  My memory sucks.  I found the video (5:20 mins in) and it compares a conventional segmented carbide cutterhead against their silent power cutterhead.  No straight knives compared at all.  The amp draw was 27 vs 19, so not the 12A I mentioned above.  And there was no mention of voltage.

 

[HAXIT]

There are two factors that can influence the running amp draw under load that aren't mentioned here.  First is the voltage.  If you're seeing 240-245V as opposed to 220V, you'll be pulling less amps.  Second is the spiral cutters put much less load on the motor compared to the straight knives.  There is a video of the A3-31 out there comparing the straight knives to the spiral cutters.  Mostly it covers noise, but they do hook up a meter to show the lower draw as well.  I don't have the link handy unfortunately, but maybe someone can post the link when they find it?

So if you're a  little sketchy about the circuit sizing but you have a stable 240V+ power supply and you're running the spiral cutter head, you'll be well under 20A running load (I think the video showed it might be closer to 12A but my memory isn't all that good).  If you've got 220V and straight knives, maybe you want to spend the extra time dissecting the contradictory information presented here, but still look at that video, I think it might add some clarity about what the machine needs, though I can't recall if they showed the voltage available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVNWrF8XzpA

 

[Mismarked]

Rod Sheridan has a lot of posts about the electrical requirements for, and other aspects of, his Hammer A3-31 and is very knowledgeable about the machine, and I reviewed his posts when deciding to make the purchase. 
If you Google "Electrical requirements for Hammer a3-31," that thread it the first thing that comes up.  It was started in 2010 but continued in Feb. 2017.  As of 2010, he had been running on a 15A circuit for 2 years with no problems and said he could have used 20A but not 30A because the equipment manufacturer specified the max for its equipment.  He's in Canada and follows Canada code requirements.  I will try to get his attention and see if he has any interest in weighing in here.
    I stated this in the original thread, but now that we have a dedicated thread, I will reiterate that I am running on a 30A circuit, but had a 20A subpanel made that is attached with magnets to the back of the A3.  It was quick and easy for the electrician to do, and it has worked without a hitch.  I got the idea from a Youtube video posted by Thomas Gadwa.  He has several showing how he tricked out his Hammer.  "Power service connection for Hammer A3 31"
  Hope this helps.

 

[ben_r_]

This is getting more interesting. That "Upstream Protection" current value is a bit confusing but brings to thought a different angle that I had not previously considered. What if by listing that value the manufacturer is saying: "Please use a breaker of X max current value to ensure the circuit is shut off before the machine draws more than X in order to prevent damage to the motor". If that were the case then running the machine on a circuit that can supply more current than X might mean that damage could be done to the motor should something go wrong and it every draws more than X and the breaker is oversized and doesnt shut the circuit off. I dont know enough about motors to answer that question.

 

[Mismarked]

[member=58821]ben_r_[/member], what you have stated is consistent with how the Hammer tech explained it to me.

 

[ben_r_]

[member=58821]ben_r_[/member], what you have stated is consistent with how the Hammer tech explained it to me.

Interesting. I wish I had more experience with motors to know if this is a normal practice or not.

 

[rljatl]

Rod Sheridan has a lot of posts about the electrical requirements for, and other aspects of, his Hammer A3-31 and is very knowledgeable about the machine, and I reviewed his posts when deciding to make the purchase. 
If you Google "Electrical requirements for Hammer a3-31," that thread it the first thing that comes up.  It was started in 2010 but continued in Feb. 2017.  As of 2010, he had been running on a 15A circuit for 2 years with no problems and said he could have used 20A but not 30A because the equipment manufacturer specified the max for its equipment.  He's in Canada and follows Canada code requirements.  I will try to get his attention and see if he has any interest in weighing in here.
    I stated this in the original thread, but now that we have a dedicated thread, I will reiterate that I am running on a 30A circuit, but had a 20A subpanel made that is attached with magnets to the back of the A3.  It was quick and easy for the electrician to do, and it has worked without a hitch.  I got the idea from a Youtube video posted by Thomas Gadwa.  He has several showing how he tricked out his Hammer.  "Power service connection for Hammer A3 31"
  Hope this helps.

Rod Sheridan states in the "Electrical requirements for Hammer a3-31" thread mentioned above that Felder warns that you should not use a 30 amp receptacle for the A3 31.  Well, Delaware technical support told me yesterday and again 6 months ago to use a 30 amp circuit.

Others have said that the breaker protects the house wiring, not the machine.

So...figuring that we really need a definitive answer on this I called Felder/Hammer a third time.  I spoke to Phillip in the Delaware tech support area (866-792-5288).  Again he verified that a 30 amp circuit is preferable, but that a 20 amp may work.

I asked Phillip to send me an email stating what he told me over the phone to avoid any warranty issues should the need arise.  He agreed to send it.

Here is what Phillip from Felder/Hammer tech support wrote:
"Thank you for contacting us regarding your Hammer A3-31 with a 3kW power system. As we discussed on the phone the specifications for this machine call for 230v single phase power plus or minus 10%, and the machine will be the most efficient and have the greatest service life operating closer to the 230v spec than at the outer edges of this range. Voltage lower than 230v, the starting of the machine, and eventual deterioration in efficiency as the machine ages will all cause some increase in current consumption compared to a new machine running at 230v. I am not a licensed electrician and can not make determinations for what should be installed in your shop - only a qualifed, licensed electrician in your area can do that. The machine's specifications recommends a 20 Amp circuit breaker as that will provide just enough for the machine to start and run, however to have some extra room on the circuit for other devices, to future proof for eventually upgrading to a larger machine, or just to avoid operating so closely to the 20A cutoff if you have voltage within the 10% range below 230v, it is acceptable from our perspective to install and use a 30 Amp circuit instead as long as your local codes and licensed electrician allow.

Please remember that the design of this single-phase, capacitor-start electrical system requires that you press and hold the start button until the motor is up to speed, then release. The stop button may be quickly pressed instead of held. This procedure will ensure the longest possibly life for your capacitors. Failing to hold the start button until the motor is up to speed will cause premature failure of these capacitors."

 

[HAXIT]

Should I start a new thread:
How hard is to plug in your Hammer machine? [thumbs up] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [wink]