What's the point of retail stores?

[cpw]

I live about 20 minutes from the Tool Nut, and bought my first Festool there. CT26 and TS75, still going strong after 8 years - though the CT has needed various self-repairs. I got good advice about taking a LR32 rail instead of a regular 55" rail (I swapped the 75" for a long rail, and then also took the 55"). They had the showroom closed for many years, but have reopened just recently.

With their closing, I got used to ordering things online. Even Tool Nut if it wasn't urgent. Though also from US Tool and Fastener, and get my information from this or other forums now though.

I hope they can keep the showroom open, but my revealed preferences are s probably not helping that cause.

 

[ChuckS]

I shop at Lee Valley Tools, and they usually have more than one staff member knowledgeable about whatever products they carry, including Festool and SawStop. They always have someone on the floor and if they can't answer your query, they'll find someone at the store who can.

But staff can go on holiday or quit and no stores can guarantee the expertise to answer a particular customer's questions is always there. If I have a technical question (rarely, as AI or forums can find me pretty much anything I want to know), I'll call first.

 

[Coen]

Festool used to require dealers or their employees to take classes at the training center in Lebanon IN. These were / are real hands on classes on using the tools and actually making things. However I am not sure of the current status.

Seth

In Europe that kinda disappeared at the same time they got punished by the EC on 'vertical price fixing'. If you can't protect your dealers from lower-priced competition, you also can't force them to get more educated on the products.
So now we get these influencers... who most of the time don't know what they are talking about. The better format is when the manufacturer sends a representative to them to talk about / use the tools together or has it's own online knowledge base. Festool USA does that wonderful with the Festool Live episodes on Friday.

city sales tax rates

Lol what.

In the Netherlands we have now some closed border crossings with Germany because there were traffic jams of Dutch drivers on small roads going to Germany to get cheaper gas. The German general VAT is also lower (19% vs 21%).

I find it astonishing that US Foggers drive hundreds of miles to go to specific retail stores. If I did that in the UK I'd be driving "coast to coast" to go browse tools. Thing is, I'm beginning to think that's what I need to do, maybe not coast to coast, but defiantly "up and down the M1".

Bob

Because we aren't as addicted to driving as a society as they are. And also more conscious about the cost of driving.
The city I grew up in had horrible bicycle infrastructure (and still getting worse). The internet made it possible to skip that sh*tty infrastructure and let things be delivered.

There are a few stores that are really nice to visit. For me that would be Van Opzeeland Techniek (formerly Hugo Schipper) in Nootdorp, close to the Hague, importer of PB Swiss Tools. Or Baptist in Arnhem; they sell all kinds of unique woodworking tools.

But besides that, groceries and clothes... I get almost everything online. Clothes just suck because their sizing isn't anywhere near reality. But once I find something and I need another / more pieces; I will just order the exact same thing online, usually from the same place.
I have the same brand and type of shoes for the last 20 years. I used to just go into the city center and buy a new pair during lunchbreak... (it's like 2 minutes in and out the store) then that store stopped selling that type. They wanted me to try other shoes. I said "Thank you, bye" and I never returned there. I then once went to another city to get a pair. I told them; "I got them from this other store over the past 10 years, they stopped selling this type.". They told me: "That is really stupid, because people buying this type of shoe are 'in&out' in no-time". That last store closed before I needed another pair. Now I get the same shoes delivered from some other place... for less money too.

 

[woodferret]

My local Lee Valley has one person (retiree) that's basically knowledgeable about some of the Festool. Although the display itself hasn't been updated since 2017 I think. And it's still got a great many classic systainers in there. I think they finally took down the OS 400 this year It definately feels like FUSA got reshuffled a few years ago to be more franchise and less rep based.

Kinda slightly torn about it. Yes, I get a great many more shops to buy from (online), but the limited number of goods means a store isn't stocked anymore and getting the consumables without a 6 month wait was a draw for Festool in the older days.

 

[leakyroof]

Don't forget factory reps can easily rebalance the equation. &

The original Minnesota Festool rep used to stop by the Minneapolis Woodcraft store every 3-4 months and give demos and answer questions. There was no time limit and he would demo anything you wanted to see and discuss anything you wanted to talk about. If Woodcraft didn't have the requisite Festool item in stock, he'd go out to his truck and bring the item in to demo and pass it around.

The current Festool rep hasn't stopped by Woodcraft in the last 7-8 years. I don't even know his/her name. I no longer make many special Saturday Woodcraft excursions.

Was that Danny as your original REP? Or someone else?. And yes ,having the sweet spot of knowledgeable Sellers, and the drop-in of the Regional Rep at the right time can really boost Festool Sales and Product knowledge for Retailers and Buyers. I was SUPER spoiled to have both for a number of years, which explains how much easier it was to talk myself into more Festool purchases...

 

[Cheese]

Was that Danny as your original REP? Or someone else?. And yes ,having the sweet spot of knowledgeable Sellers, and the drop-in of the Regional Rep at the right time can really boost Festool Sales and Product knowledge for Retailers and Buyers. I was SUPER spoiled to have both for a number of years, which explains how much easier it was to talk myself into more Festool purchases...

Yup...Danny it was. He was terrific, part salesman, part educator and just a fun guy to hang with & talk to.
Once at a demonstration, he "accidentally" knocked the KAL Syslite off of an MTF and a 6' ladder onto the cement floor 4 different times. Guess what I purchased that day?

 

[Coen]

Guess what I purchased that day?

A hard hat and safety shoes.

 

[UncleRunkle]

Rockville is a great shop with very nice and welcoming staff. If they don't have what you're looking for, give the Baltimore location a call. Chances are they'll have it in-stock. I've heard that people will call them and then drive all the way to Baltimore because they got it that day. One guy drove from Pittsburgh to pick up a PCS.

Sounds good. Likewise if you’re down this end of the BW Parkway my friend’s store in DC is a dealer with a decent inventory and can order as well for you

 

[onocoffee]

Sounds good. Likewise if you’re down this end of the BW Parkway my friend’s store in DC is a dealer with a decent inventory and can order as well for you

You do mean Woodcraft Rockville, correct? Or is there another woodworking supply place I'm not aware of?

 

[onocoffee]

Festool used to require dealers or their employees to take classes at the training center in Lebanon IN. These were / are real hands on classes on using the tools and actually making things. However I am not sure of the current status.

Seth

I just had a conversation with a couple of Festool reps today and we touched on this because I asked if they were ever going to do user classes again. From what they told me, the training team (which is just three people) is still catching up on all the training they need to do for dealers and the Festool Lives have kinda taken the place of the user training sessions. Perhaps once they get all their dealers caught up they might open up more.

 

[PaulMarcel]

Out here, Timber Machinery and Woodworkers' Source are pretty knowledgeable. Timber has a pretty epic display and usually hosts the Festool events.

Occasionally, I hear about the rep visiting WWS and invite myself, haha! His CSC-SYS 50 demo was, hmm...

So, the demo... he definitely knew all the buttons, features of the fence, portability, etc. Then the miter demo... miter gauge to 45º and slides the stock up to the fence. I slowly backed away. The guy next to me looked at me wondering then I guess he noticed, too, based on how big his eyes got and also backed away. Predictably, that cut launched itself. Didn't even pause, just kept talking the spiel while looking for the part: "and as you can see, just a perfect cut" me: "with a little corner ding". For the curious, I'm told he doesn't like correction, and clearly he's launched a few in the past, so I kept quiet. aita? maybe.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

That's the Woodcraft I go to as well. I've had a similar experience where the staff tend to mostly be young people who aren't exceptionally knowledgeable about woodworking and definitely don't know the ins and outs of specific tools. It doesn't bother me much because I'm not going to them as product experts, I'm going there because I need something for a project and don't want to wait one to five days to get it online. But like you, I get most of my Festool kit from Amazon because of the 5% discount from the credit card.

I can clarify this a little: here in Colorado, our state sales tax rate is fairly low (2.9%), but county and city sales tax rates can be quite high since they are a primary revenue stream for local governments rather than property taxes as in many states. If you order things from Amazon, you pay sales tax based on where you live, while if you buy from a retail store, you're paying tax based on the location of the store. Given that city sales tax is often between 3-5%, if you live on unincorporated land and you're not in a hurry, you can save a decent amount of money by buying online rather than driving into town and buying from a store. Overall this is probably not the best system of incentives for the state and punishes local businesses, but these things are usually the product of history long before the internet came and upended everything.

Ditto...I just moved back to CO and have bought a few things here. Friendly enough, but do not really know the tools. Same with Rockler. I too live in an unincorporated area and save a bundle on lower sales tax than other areas. Seems like a small contingent of FOG members in the area.

 

[UncleRunkle]

You do mean Woodcraft Rockville, correct? Or is there another woodworking supply place I'm not aware of?

There’s a Festool dealer in DC- Jenk’s Hardware (I think formal name is Jenk’s Tool and Machinery something). Worth a look if you’re down that way. Not so much woodworking-focused but good service.

 

[Sparktrician]

There’s a Festool dealer in DC- Jenk’s Hardware (I think formal name is Jenk’s Tool and Machinery something). Worth a look if you’re down that way. Not so much woodworking-focused but good service.

It's W. S. Jenks and Son, 910 Bladensburg Rd NE, Washington, DC 20002, (202) 529-6020.

 

[woodferret]

That CSC50 would have annoyed me considering the fence slides forward effortlessly, by design.

 

[Cypren]

Ditto...I just moved back to CO and have bought a few things here. Friendly enough, but do not really know the tools. Same with Rockler. I too live in an unincorporated area and save a bundle on lower sales tax than other areas. Seems like a small contingent of FOG members in the area.

I’ve generally found the clerks at Rockler in Denver to be more knowledgeable than at Woodcraft; they’ve just got more greybeards with actual experience on staff. I’ve run into the local Festool rep (his name is escaping me) a couple of times as well, once at Woodcraft and then once up at Austin Hardwoods. But I’m not really sure I’d go to salespeople for detailed technical questions about hardware. They rarely have experience using it, and the internet is just so much more comprehensive of a resource.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I would guess that the current mind-set is far more geared towards online shopping and next day delivery. This is kind of at odds with the "I want to hold it my hands first" mentality, but that may be aging out too?
I'm a little mixed on the whole thing.
I do have and patronize a couple of local dealers.
One is a Woodcraft, which has gone downhill a bit lately. I'm not sure why though? The original proprietors retired a few years ago, but the online factor may have changed someone's outlook or even options. Stores need to have these people available to them in the first place. They can't hire an ideal applicant, if there are none out there. They never were into stocking a lot of Festool stuff though. Maybe because the Chain itself is geared more toward hobbyists/craftspeople?
The other is much more "equipment" oriented, meaning mostly cabinet shops and other pros. They have an internal Rockler department too. Originally the Rockler store was a free-standing entity of its own. Somewhere along the line, it closed and reappeared as a dedicated space within the bigger store. This place has a much greater selection, well it did, until a recent downsizing. They had to move because of road construction on their corner lot, but the people remain. They have always had a good group of guys, knowledgeable and helpful.
There are also a couple of vendors that supply the shop where I work, who are also Festool dealers. They don't have retail displays, but I can get most things delivered the next day.

Overall, I think that retail is just taking a hit with most segments, even grocery stores deliveries are surging. (at least in my area)
Covid may have opened some people's eyes about what is possible, and since the infrastructure for it exists now, it continues.

 

[Ace8]

In my country (Europe) I personally don’t see the point anymore because the online vendors do offers such low prices, great customer service in a shop isn’t worth the difference imo.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

Back in the day, many of the folks working at local woodworking retailers (independent or franchises like Rockler and Woodcraft) were folks who were "into" the woodworking arts and worked there for "mad money" to spend on their hobby. The larger part of folks working in these same physical stores these days (those that are still around) are there to have a job and may or many not actually do woodworking. That doesn't mean some don't take the time to learn the products to some functional level because folks who are good workers will do that, but it's less likely that there will be woodworking experience behind those efforts. And the reality, as has been mentioned quite a few times, is that people tend to buy online, even after they fondle something in a local store. Relative to Festool, when I first started this, um...affliction...I was buying directly from "Uncle Bob" (Bob Marino) and he even came to the shop, despite my being just a serious hobbyist, handed me tools to try and not long after (no surprise) delivered whatever he addicted to me by letting me touch it so I could give him money. These days, that kind of thing just doesn't happen and everything I bought in the last x number of years was purchased online, primarily from ToolNut, which sitting at my desk. Two days later, it's in my hands.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Most tool stores out our way operate like supermarkets, pluck your item off the shelf and head to the checkout.

Some of the smaller (and not so small) organise demo or specials days where they get vendors to come and bring display tools so people can try them and get advice. That's a bit rare though. When I was shopping for a new SCMS I was looking at the Bosch knuckle joint unit in a tool shop I'd been buying at probably 10 years, but wanted to just switch on the demo one to hear the noise level. They wouldn't do it, wouldn't even let a staff member do it with me standing off in the distance.

Drove to another tool shop other side of the city, checked out and tested the Kapex 120 on some scrap timber they had for this purpose, and bought it on the spot. Very glad I did, it's been an awesome bit of kit.