Where is my CMS router table?

[DANIELKARL]

About a year ago, I went to router ninja class in Lebanon and you guys trucked out at little CMS router table for a 2200. I thought it was a cute idea and started diverting monies from kids college fund to get a CMS and a 2200. Now the 2200 is going on sale, sort of, and still no CMS I see them as a pair and just can not go bolting a 2200 to a sink cutout and calling it my Festool router table. What gives? And don't go telling that old UL story, other companies import things everyday.  I would like a 2200 and a CMS, but both not just one.

 

[EcoFurniture]

The crappiest tools get UL....Just go to HD and look at all those cheap powertools. I have trouble believing that UL is the only reason some Festools wont be sold here.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Rick Bush told me it has a lot to do with demand.  He said, "How many hundreds or thousands of people want it?"  This is probably what Shane is fishing for with his recent post.

 

[Christian93117]

Well, the question is hard to answer without telling you "that old UL story". As old as it is, it is still true. No UL approval yet. And this is the only reason why the CMS
is not here in NA yet. ETA? No idea at this point. Sorry I don't have better news.

Christian

 

[EcoFurniture]

Christian, thanks for your reply!

Aren't you guys asking yourself how something like the CMS wont get UL and other brands get approval left and right? Just walk through a typical home improvement store and look at those flimsy powertools with (mostly) useless safety guards. I just don't get it. Maybe other brands have a bigger "friendship/ vacation" budged  [embarassed]

Anyhow, whatever the reason may be, bring the CMS and people will buy it as this set up will generate money, therefore the cost would not such a big issue as with , let's say, a centrotec set.

Cheers,
Andreas

 

[graphex]

Even better, walk through a harbor freight tool store. If you walk back out with any fingers left you'll hope it's your middle one to show to the red tape folks at Underwear Labratories.

 

[image132]

Rick Bush told me it has a lot to do with demand.  He said, "How many hundreds or thousands of people want it?"  This is probably what Shane is fishing for with his recent post.

I can't believe that. If Festool are offering just about everything else in their line to ship out 1 more tool cannot make a difference especially when Festool works on a system that it does. I'm willing to bet there are at 100 tools or accessories that are being sold in NA that are not "in demand/popular."

I'm pretty sure that CMS and Preciso aren't very popular here due to their cost and yet they are sold here. I'm sure the same goes for the UK in a lesser extent. The fact that I only know of 2 people on this forum that own either a CMS or the Preciso out of the amount of people who chat here regularly from the EU should also disprove that or i guess prove my ignorance. [tongue]

It is entirely possible that it is the UL approval that it stopping it but I find it hard to believe that with the level of quality Festool have that anything can be "not UL approved" from them. I don't exactly know how UL works though.

 

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

Regarding demand - I'd buy it day one of availability.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

+1 on I'll buy it as soon as its available. 

Is it time to rethink UL approval?  Can you not sell it without UL approval?  I don't need it.

 

[jonny round boy]

I can't believe that. If Festool are offering just about everything else in their line to ship out 1 more tool cannot make a difference especially when Festool works on a system that it does. I'm willing to bet there are at 100 tools or accessories that are being sold in NA that are not "in demand/popular."

Yes, it would be quite simple to do with accessories, but with powered items the electrical requirements are different to any other country. So in order to sell a particular tool in the US, it needs to be re-designed, with a unique part number, and a new production line set up. That all costs money, and Festool has to be confident they'll make that money back through sales.

I'm pretty sure that CMS and Preciso aren't very popular here due to their cost and yet they are sold here. I'm sure the same goes for the UK in a lesser extent. The fact that I only know of 2 people on this forum that own either a CMS or the Preciso out of the amount of people who chat here regularly from the EU should also disprove that or i guess prove my ignorance. [tongue]

In SA, the elecrical requirements are 220V @ 50Hz, which is the same as mainland Europe, so the above doesn't apply.

 

[mouppe]

Johnny, nice try, but you're trying to explain the inexplicable. It's just UL bs.

 

[jonny round boy]

Johnny, nice try, but you're trying to explain the inexplicable. It's just UL bs.

I'm not trying to explain the inexplicable at all, I'm just saying that even if the UL issue disappeared tomorrow, the US wouldn't neccessarily get every Festool power tool that's available in Europe. They'd get the more popular ones, but not the less popular ones as it wouldn't be economical for Festool to re-design the electrics.

If the US decided to join the civilised world and use 220-240 volts (and kick UL to the kerb), then things might be different... [tongue]

 

[Rob-GB]

Johnny, nice try, but you're trying to explain the inexplicable. It's just UL bs.

I'm not trying to explain the inexplicable at all, I'm just saying that even if the UL issue disappeared tomorrow, the US wouldn't neccessarily get every Festool power tool that's available in Europe. They'd get the more popular ones, but not the less popular ones as it wouldn't be economical for Festool to re-design the electrics.

If the US decided to join the civilised world and use 220-240 volts (and kick UL to the kerb), then things might be different... [tongue]

Come on mate most of them struggle with metrication! [eek] That is a cheaper changeover than volts and hz would entail, it would be cheaper to get driving on the correct side of the road organised, so it's a case of  [dead horse] again.
That said North America has a vibrant woodworking community both hobby and trade so offering the full range to them would generate long term business opportunities, just as long as they don't base all their business plans on sending products out to just five people to review, as was the case with the FS-PA Bag apparently. If Dewalt did that they would never sell anything...now there is a nice thought. ;D [laughing]

 

[Gene Howerton]

I would buy the CMS router table if it came out.  I can't see this being a big deal, the 2220 is UL approved, the rest is just a table like any other router table.  I have been waiting for this for a year as well.  Now would be the time, since the 2220 is on sale.

I already have one table but the dust collection is not in the same League as Festool, that alone sells the product for me.

 

[image132]

I can't believe that. If Festool are offering just about everything else in their line to ship out 1 more tool cannot make a difference especially when Festool works on a system that it does. I'm willing to bet there are at 100 tools or accessories that are being sold in NA that are not "in demand/popular."

Yes, it would be quite simple to do with accessories, but with powered items the electrical requirements are different to any other country. So in order to sell a particular tool in the US, it needs to be re-designed, with a unique part number, and a new production line set up. That all costs money, and Festool has to be confident they'll make that money back through sales.

I'm pretty sure that CMS and Preciso aren't very popular here due to their cost and yet they are sold here. I'm sure the same goes for the UK in a lesser extent. The fact that I only know of 2 people on this forum that own either a CMS or the Preciso out of the amount of people who chat here regularly from the EU should also disprove that or i guess prove my ignorance. [tongue]

In SA, the elecrical requirements are 220V @ 50Hz, which is the same as mainland Europe, so the above doesn't apply.

Yeah, I realised that was the flaw in my argument after I posted it. [embarassed]

To me from a business point of view I think if you would send the CMS anywhere it would America. From what I understand it is a first world country with a higher standard of living than most places. Meaning more people would be able to afford it. Maybe I am firing my arrow at into the empty bush here but that's just what I think.

It could be that due to the CMS' lack of popularity with the EU they have deemed that the cost of setting up the production line would be greater than the revenue earned by the sales in the States.  [scratch chin]

Sorry NA this is one of the few times I'm glad I live in SA, I know at some point when I get a proper job I plan on buying one.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Johnny, nice try, but you're trying to explain the inexplicable. It's just UL bs.

I'm not trying to explain the inexplicable at all, I'm just saying that even if the UL issue disappeared tomorrow, the US wouldn't neccessarily get every Festool power tool that's available in Europe. They'd get the more popular ones, but not the less popular ones as it wouldn't be economical for Festool to re-design the electrics.

If the US decided to join the civilised world and use 220-240 volts (and kick UL to the kerb), then things might be different... [tongue]

Come on mate most of them struggle with metrication! [eek] That is a cheaper changeover than volts and hz would entail, it would be cheaper to get driving on the correct side of the road organised, so it's a case of  [dead horse] again.
That said North America has a vibrant woodworking community both hobby and trade so offering the full range to them would generate long term business opportunities, just as long as they don't base all their business plans on sending products out to just five people to review, as was the case with the FS-PA Bag apparently. If Dewalt did that they would never sell anything...now there is a nice thought. ;D [laughing]

As Chris M. would say - you are firing your arrow into the empty bush.  We don't cotton to that fancy pants 'civilization' stuff - don't have it, don't need it, don't want it.  [laughing]

 

[RONWEN]

When you browse around the UL site map you can see where all of the red tape in the world gets used...

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=XJYW.E173275&ccnshorttitle=Portable+Electric+Tools&objid=1074040771&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073995665&sequence=1

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Well, the question is hard to answer without telling you "that old UL story". As old as it is, it is still true. No UL approval yet. And this is the only reason why the CMS
is not here in NA yet. ETA? No idea at this point. Sorry I don't have better news.

This post seems to suggest that Festool is seeking UL approval for the CMS.  Is this much true ?

It just seems that raising the UL bogeyman is more convenient than saying outright that there are no plans or interest in bringing a particular tool to North America.  I understand that the optics of being forthright *if the latter were true* might be objectionable.

Maybe North America is an insignificant portion of Festool's sales that they only care to bring the fast movers here.  That  seems hard to fathom, just as the notion that Festool can't meet the same UL approval hurdles that other companies, making far less expensive tools of supposedly lesser quality and engineering standards, seem to have no problem meeting over and over again.

 

[Christian93117]

If there were no plans of bringing the CMS to North America, I would say it. We are not raising any bogeymen, and we don't write stuff here just
because it is convenient. It is much true that we are seeking UL approval for the CMS. We have been seeking UL approval for the CMS, since the CMS was launched in Europe.

The initial question was about the CMS and the OF2200 = the CMS system as router table. This is what I was referring to. I can also say that the chance of
getting the CMS approved for use with the TS saw is close to zero.

Why do other companies seem to have an easier time getting UL approval than Festool? I am no UL expert by any means, but UL approval does not
necessarily have anything to do with the quality of a tool. It has to do with meeting certain requirements and standards. Festool is pushing the envelope in some  
categories and might not meet those standards as easily as some of the more common tools. In case of the CMS, we are talking about getting approval for
a) the OF2200 (we have that already), b) the CMS table (don't have it yet), AND c) the CMS with the router as a router table (don't have it yet).

We are in the tool business. We want to sell tools. We want to get as many products to NA as possible. We know the CMS would sell well in NA. We are not
using UL as an excuse. But getting UL approval on tools that are not "standard" tools, like a random orbital sander, can be tough. I don't know if some of you
remember, but getting UL approval on the TS saws took 3 years.

Last but not least: Keep in mind that we are, compared to most of our competitors, a rather small company. We are investing a lot of energy and resources into
innovating new tools. We can't do everything at once, we have to do it sometimes step by step and that takes a little bit more time. Because at the end of the
day, the only thing that really matters is to provide excellent products do you all, products that will make you more productive and efficient. And that means we sometimes have to do things that  cause a delay at UL, because they don't meet existing standards.

Hope this helps to understand a little better where we stand regarding UL.

Christian

 

[mouppe]

Christian,

Thanks for your response, but what you do not discuss is why UL approval is necessary in the first place? This is perhaps the biggest issue that we Festool users have a problem with, seeing as how the tools are available throughout Europe.

Richard.