Which Japanese Waterstones should I get

[sgryd]

I'm enjoying my Tormek T7 grinder. But I need some stones for flattening the back of chisels and plane irons. I'm also curious to learn how to hone the bevels on flat stones. I have read that this might get me even sharper tools than the Tormek.

How many steps of grit should I get?
How high should I go?

I'm thinking 3 or four steps from 800 to 6,000 or maybe 8,000.
If I go for 8,000 or 10,000 I suppose I'll need a Nagura stone as well?
Do I need Nagura for 6,000 as well?

Does the quality differ between different stones?
I'm thinking of ordering from Axminster.

Maybe a 4000 and an 6000 of these:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-japanese-fine-and-polishing-waterstones-prod20288/

Or maybe this kit and the only the 4000 of the above:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-ice-bear-waterstone-sharpening-kit-prod23188/

I have never used water stones.
I'll probably get the Veritas MkII honing guide.

Hoping for advice.
//Michael

 

[MarkF]

I can't advise on the stones you are interested in other than be prepared to spend lots of time flattening them and don't let them freeze.  Hopefully someone has had experience with them.  For me similar natural and manmade stones are too prone to dish and need frequent flattening.  I don't use sharpening stones every day and presoaking was a pain.  I now use the Naniwa Super-Stones for honing with an inexpensive honing guide.  The guide was touched up a bit with a file to allow the blade to lie flat while in use.  The blade location in the guide is adjusted with a home made angle setting jig ala http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/AngleSettingJig.pdf .  The Super-Stones are a synthetic "stone" made with an abrasive impregnated resin.  They do not require pre-soaking.  For me they stay flat longer (~3-4 times longer) and cut faster than an equivalent natural Japanese or Norton manmade abrasive.  I use a Granite floor tile covered with wet/dry sandpaper to flatten them when needed.  If I was buying sharpening equipment today I would probably go with diamond plates.  They have gotten bigger, finer, flatter and cheaper in the past few years.  You just have to allow them to do the work with a light touch.

BTW...I also use a Tormek on some tools.  You can connect your T-7 to a foot switch and use the side of the stone for lapping. (A 10y/o child can operate the switch for you too ;D ) First, roughen the side of the stone with the coarse side of the grader.  Use an SVD-110 Tool Rest if you have one (but not essential) to stabilize the tool.  Spray the side of the stone with water.  With the machine off, place your tool back flat against the side of the stone.  Activate the foot switch for a minute or so and check your work.  Spray the side and repeat until you are flat.  Finish up with a fine stone, plate or Scary Sharp sandpaper on a flat surface until shiny. 

 

[mouppe]

I use waterstones to sharpen my tools. There are dozens of methods, but here is mine which works very well for me.

I have a couple of King stones from a long time ago, which I now use to sharpen my kitchen knives. They are not very good stones, at least not as good as my Norton stones. I have found there to be a big difference from stone to stone. Norton are my favourite. I also tried a Sigma 10000 stone but my Norton 8000 was better so I returned it.

This is my equipment. I have a Norton 1000, 4000 and 8000 stone. I rarely use the 4000. You also need something to flatten the stones with- I use a DMT diamond plate. This is roughly equivalent to 220 on one side and 320 on the other. I use the Veritas Mk II honing guide- it's excellent.

That's all you need, although a grinder is sometimes necessary. I gave my bench grinder to a friend but I regret it when I need to change the bevel on a chisel or blade.

I use my diamond plate to change the bevel, or if there is a large nick. Then it's off to the 1000 stone. I hone with the 8000 stone. I use the honing guide for plane blades, but I do my chisels freehand now. It took a while to get the technique down, but it saves so much time when you learn to do it. Eventually I'll learn to freehand my plane blades too.

To touch up a blade, I use the 8000 stone only. It's similar to sanding wood- you go to the lowest grit necessary to smooth. Same with blades. If you don't need to use the 1000 stone, just use the 8000, but if there is a deeper nick, it is quicker to go to the 1000 stone or even the diamond plate, and then finish with the 8000 stone. Hope this makes sense. You don't need the intermediate grit stones as you are only honing a mm or so on the edge.

I am lucky to have a sink in my workshop, and my sharpening station is next to it. (It's an IKEA small wooden table.) I keep the stones in a plastic container full of water.

I haven't found it necessary to use a honing compound, but many people do. If I can get a nice shaving on something like birds eye maple or ice birch, then my blade is as sharp as I'll ever need it.

I wouldn't drive yourself crazy with sharpening, but I do believe that you'll get a better edge with waterstones than with your Tormek. I tried the Tormek and the results were nowhere near what I can get with the stones.

 

[j123j]

With the stone set that Stu sells (toolsfromjapan.com Sigma Power 1000-6000-13000+ATOMA) you'll get the best bang/buck.

I currently use the sigmas and once you learn how to use them properly they offer great performance.

That reminds me, I've been thinking about getting the 1200+6000+diamond plate set for onsite sharpening.  [smile] The 6000 is plenty fine for stricking chisels and adequate even for plane blades and paring chisels

 

[j123j]

How many steps of grit should I get?

Depends on the tool. For stricking chisels I use two (1000-6000) unless the cutting edge is chipped badly and I need to coarser to remove metal faster.
For plane blades and paring chisels I use 1000-6000-13000.

How high should I go?

Chisels usually 6000, planes blades 8000-13000 or as high as you dare (30000) but I havent personally used a higher grit than 13000 and I dont plan to.


Does the quality differ between different stones?

Yes, very much so. Also the steel you are working with is an important factor when choosing stones. I dont think the axminster icebear stones cut alloyed steels very well but for plain carbon steel they might be adequate.
Also I think those icebear stones are very soft so they hollow in use too fast.

Maybe a 4000 and an 6000 of these:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-japanese-fine-and-polishing-waterstones-prod20288/

Or maybe this kit and the only the 4000 of the above:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-ice-bear-waterstone-sharpening-kit-prod23188/

I have never used water stones.
I'll probably get the Veritas MkII honing guide.

Hoping for advice.
//Michael

All in all, if these are your first stones, I would recomend the Sigma power 1000+6000+iWood diamond plate #300 *link*

And the honing guide is a good thing to start with.

 

[Nick C]

I have used a few brands of Japanese water stones, and have settled on Shapton. They don't require soaking--just a squirt is OK, they cut fast, and the finish is excellent. I flatten the stones with a diamond plate after using them. Your range of grits is fine. Anything beyond 8000 is "gilding the lily." No need for the Nagura. I also use the Veritas guide, and like it a lot.

 

[sgryd]

Hmm. I should have suspected this to not be an easy journey.
Thank you for all your input.

Thinking about it (and understanding more of what't in it) I've came to this:
- I want it as simple as possible
- I'd like to not have to store the stones wet
- I'd like to not have to flatten the stones (at least not very often).

Diamond plates seems interesting. Stays flat, doesn't care about being soaked. But are they any good?
8,000 grit: http://www.axminster.co.uk/dmt-dia-sharp-extra-extra-fine-continuous-diamond-whetstone-prod781152/
600 grit: http://www.axminster.co.uk/dmt-dia-sharp-fine-continuous-diamond-whetstones-prod885740/

Otherwise I'd like some non-soak-stay-kinda-flat stones. Shaptons seems like the choice for many. L/N has Ohishi stones which seems nice http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=2-OHISHI

I'm climbing the price scale here. Kind of the same feeling as with those green tools
I've learned through a couple of bad buys that it pays to get it right from start. I'd like to buy stones or diamond that will last me for many years. I have no problem aiming at the good stuff. But I'd like to NOT buy expensive stones that I will ruin due to my inexperience.

Would it be unwise to go for Shaptons or Ohishi being completely inexperienced with stones? I'm prepared to put the L/N #4 plane order on hold if needed to afford the right stones.

//Michael

 

[JeromeM]

I have used a few brands of Japanese water stones, and have settled on Shapton. They don't require soaking--just a squirt is OK, they cut fast, and the finish is excellent. I flatten the stones with a diamond plate after using them. Your range of grits is fine. Anything beyond 8000 is "gilding the lily." No need for the Nagura. I also use the Veritas guide, and like it a lot.

I've got 4 Shaptons and the instructions that come with them say to soak them for 10 mins before use.

 

[RC]

I've been looking at these stones myself Naniva Chosera since they seem to require only a squirt of water when used and should be stored dry, but would like to hear about experiences with them if anyone has used them?

 

[JeromeM]

I've been looking at these stones myself Naniva Chosera since they seem to require only a squirt of water when used and should be stored dry, but would like to hear about experiences with them if anyone has used them?

if you can get the Japanese instructions and translate them you will probably find that they are the same as the Shapton stones. The recommendation, which are on the site you linked to, are to soak them for 6 to 10 mins before use but to store them dry.

If you look at the Shapton information it mentions that the soaking helps the sharpening

(The stone) should be placed in water about 6 to 10 minutes before use, so that it has enough time to soak up the water that lubricates the stone while sharpening.

 

[RC]

Thanks for the info Jerome - my Japanese is a bit rusty - i.e. non-existant [embarassed]

Meant to enlist on the Japanese courses in university for years but they were always at the same time maths & physics lectures so when finally I did get them all done in my fifth year I realised that I could only do kanji 1 & 2 courses before I graduate.  [sad]

Never found the time and energy to pursue that interest since.

 

[sgryd]

Thanks for the link Reiska. There is a lot of information on stones at the Dieter Schmid site. Good thing that it is in EU as well, which makes it easier to order.
I've emailed them a bunch of questions. It will be interesting to see what they have to say.
//Michael

 

[ShawnRussell]

This is my very newbie opinion...

I bought Nortons, Shaptons, tried scary sharp, and even tried Arkansas stones ala the Schwartz. What I have found over the last year is that as long as I stick with one method and one set of stones my chisels and other blades are sharp enough to slice/pound through any wood out there. I have no scientific method to back up my advice, what I do know is each method used with any stone is sharp enough to cut the F&^$ out of you.

The one caveat I would add is if you have the new Veritas PM-V11 blades and you want sharp in a hurry, I would not use the Arkansas stones.

 

[sgryd]

I shoot a bunch of questions to Dieter Schmid. I thought I'd post them here as well. Maybe someone willl chime in and maybe someone is interested in the answers I'll get.

Hi.
I enjoyed reading the information you give about the different stones. But I still can’t decide.

I have a Tormek T-7 which gives me good results. But I need a flat stone to flatten the back of plane irons and chisels.

I’m also a bit curious on what kind of improvement a god set of stones and some good amount of practice will get me over the Tormek.

I don’t want to mess with oil, so I’ve zoomed in on water stones.

As I mostly sharpen chisels I don’t think the soft King nor Sigma well do me well, as they are soft. I have learned that I’ll have to flatten the stones regularly, but I don’t want to do this as often as in between chisels.

I really like mirror sheen, which rules out Shapton. It also rules out diamond, at least for honing.

I’d like to have a quite easy set-up. If pre-soaking is avoidable I’d rather sprinkle the stone.

I’d like a DMT Dia-Flat for flattening the stones. But I don’t think I can get this from you, could I?

I’d really like to learn this, so I’d like a set of stones that will allow me to grow into it. I’m thinking of getting three stones, maybe 1200, 3000 and 6000.

What stones would you recommend?

 

[RC]

I've ordered some Veritas stuff from Dieter and his shipment was punctual and well packed. Haven't talked with him thou.

 

[JeromeM]

Thanks for the info Jerome - my Japanese is a bit rusty - i.e. non-existant [embarassed]
.

Mine is almost as bad, but google is your friend  :

 

[ajones]

I shoot a bunch of questions to Dieter Schmid. I thought I'd post them here as well. Maybe someone willl chime in and maybe someone is interested in the answers I'll get.

Hi.
I enjoyed reading the information you give about the different stones. But I still can’t decide.

I have a Tormek T-7 which gives me good results. But I need a flat stone to flatten the back of plane irons and chisels.

I’m also a bit curious on what kind of improvement a god set of stones and some good amount of practice will get me over the Tormek.

I don’t want to mess with oil, so I’ve zoomed in on water stones.

As I mostly sharpen chisels I don’t think the soft King nor Sigma well do me well, as they are soft. I have learned that I’ll have to flatten the stones regularly, but I don’t want to do this as often as in between chisels.

I really like mirror sheen, which rules out Shapton. It also rules out diamond, at least for honing.

I’d like to have a quite easy set-up. If pre-soaking is avoidable I’d rather sprinkle the stone.

I’d like a DMT Dia-Flat for flattening the stones. But I don’t think I can get this from you, could I?

I’d really like to learn this, so I’d like a set of stones that will allow me to grow into it. I’m thinking of getting three stones, maybe 1200, 3000 and 6000.

What stones would you recommend?

I have done the waterstone thing I think its all to time consuming.. because you have to flatten the stones as well [huh]

 

[sgryd]

What did you do instead? Diamond?

 

[ajones]

What did you do instead? Diamond?

I use a sheet of glass and some fancy abrasive that is used to polish fibre optic cable

 

[JayStPeter]

Sounds like you're on the right track and asking the right questions.  I have the Norton stones and it's really a hassle to just touch up an edge or two.  I try to do the heavy sharpening between projects and just spend part of an evening doing everything.  This is when I re-establish primary bevels and such.
I think my plan is to keep the 220/1000 Norton for that purpose and get something else for the quick touch up.  Was planning a couple Shapton glass stones for that, but will look at the other stuff discussed here.  I might just go Shapton in total since they have a holder and other stuff that adds up.  The Nortons come with cases that act as nice holders, it's really too bad they wind up being a bit of a hassle.
The Veritas guide is great IMO.  I may try one of the cheap side guides though, just for speed on the touch up portion.