Which Mitre Saw- Can't afford Kapex (Yet...)?

[Grasshopper]

I wanted to revive this old post as my first post on the FOG.

…So I am drinking the Kool-Aid, and basically have a magnet for uncovering expensive hobbies.

I am an aspiring DIY'er, with plans to:
-Trim out my house
-Build a new kitchen island
-Build various built ins throughout my house
-eventually finish my basement.

I have zero experience, but am "certified YouTube trained".  I started to accumulate tools (the fun part right) last year.  I purchased several Dewalt tools based on stellar Amazon reviews.  Included in that, is the Dewalt DWS780 12" CMS.  I let this collect dust in the box as I planned which moldings to use, etc.

In my research, I found the Festool slippery slope (with aim to break down sheet goods for my island cabinets) and now own:

-Reconditioned TS55 (like new…pretty sweet with the Festool Recon sale)
-OF 1400 EQ (thank you Craigslist)
-CT 22 Dust Extractor (craigslist)

I love the concept of a system that works together, as well as the dust collection.  Plus it really looks cool (I can admit it right).  My "shop" will be a garage that has a convertible in it with top down most the time (so if the dust collection is good enough that I can leave the garage as a garage as-is would be cool.  My gut says, that even at 90% collection, I would still have to back out the car, and move anything that I don't want to get dusty, or cut outside.  If I am wrong here, I am all ears)

Now with my Dewalt 12" Sliding miter saw unopened in the box, I am wondering if I should unbox the Dewalt, or get the Kapex.  I am at best a weekend warrior, and none of my tools will get a ton of use.  From what I gather in the FOG, the Kapex is the favorite, but it also seems like guys here use their tools a ton (real men  [big grin]).

The advice I am looking for is whether or not I will really see much in the way of a "seat of my pants" difference between the two.

Dust extraction aside since I can cut outside if needed (on paper, the Dewalt claims 70% collection vs. Festool's 90%+), what is the real world difference I should expect being a very green aspiring DIY'er?  I get that the Dewalt has some deflection and is a little wonky fully extended (i've heard as much as 1/32" play fully extended).  I ran to a box store and tugged on the floor model and saw a tiny bit of play.

Sorry for the newbie question, but "real world" when I am most likely cutting base, casings, and some crown for my house, and eventually 4x4 lumber for a kids play house, will that amount of play be a big deal.  I won't be lugging the saw around, so weight and portability (advantage Kapex) is not a factor.  I can foresee cutting large crown at some point (so the 7+" nested capacity with the Dewalt is why I originally bought it) for our vaulted ceiling.  I will be cutting 7 1/4" baseboard.

I am concerned about reading some folks have had their motors burn up with the Kapex

I tend to talk myself into better equipment than I need, so I thought I'd appeal to the FOG for advice.

Option A - Open the Dewalt box and enjoy
Option B- Return the Dewalt to the box store, and dig into wallet another $700+ for Kapex, and probably more for an MFT as a stand.

 

[wow]

First, [welcome] to the FOG!

Viewing your post and trying to tread between the lines, I think that you will forever be second guessing your decision if you keep the Dewalt. And if you used it for a while and then tried to sell it you're not gonna get anywhere near what you paid for it. So, I vote that you return it and get the Kapex.

I think that you will LOVE the Kapex, but if you ever decide that you no longer want or need it you can always sell it for nearly what you paid for it.

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

Note, he's using a 12" saw.



I don't even own a miter saw right now despite having a well-equipped shop but if I get asked to hang crown  I'm buying a 12" saw and  doing what this guy does.

 

[Max Fracas]

Thanks for posting the video.  Very interesting. 

I have a DeWalt DWS780.  Out of the box I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to get it to cut accurately.  I put on a Freud blade and that helped a lot with cut quality.  I try to be very careful when making cuts to avoid deflection, and with this care feel the saw does a great job on 90 degree cuts.  I've had trouble with blade deflection on bevel cuts, especially those that require the saw to slide along its rails.  With more practice I think I can counteract the deflection problem on narrow cuts, but on cuts where I slide on the rails I think deflection will continue to be a problem.  I have a dust collector attached to the saw, but feel the design of the saw's dust port is ineffective.  A dust hood is on my project list. 

I have a small shop and the design of the DeWalt means I lose some space because I have to bring the saw so far out from the wall.  The Kapex would be a better tool for optimizing my shop space. 

I really want better accuracy and more effective dust collection and would buy a Kapex if it were $900 or even $1000.  At $1400 the saw is quite expensive for someone who works wood as a hobby.

 

[Kristian]

I can highly recommend the Bosch saws. I once bought the Bosch GCM 12 SD online without actually seeing it first and when it turned up it was quite clear that it was way too big and heavy for my use. I replaced it with a small model from Metabo but it lacked features so when it was time to replace it I bought the Bosch GCM 8 S which is truly a great saw. What's more important was that it came with the GTA 2500 Compact saw stand which is great in size and weight (folded together it's only 105 cm long). You can carry the saw in one hand using it's handle and neither the saw nor the stand takes up much space in my van. The saw may not have the largest capacity for crown work but we don't do much of that here in Denmark so here it's a very popular saw.

 

[waho6o9]

Compound angles is where the Kapex shines IMHO.

One can set the angle with one hand and set it
without the motor falling. Not sure how other saws
work but I'm sure it's similar.

I love my angle transfer accessory included in the
lower left part of the base.
[attachthumb=1]

For your needs you'll choose the best one you like.
Good luck on your decision and after 30 days you can
return the Kapex without question should you decide
it's not what you want.

 

[justinh]

With a tune up and a good standard kerf (not thin kerf) blade the 780 is a good saw.  DeWalt saws are very easy to adjust and all three that I own hold their settings once adjusted.  There is a good article on the process on This is Carpentry. 

 

[Grasshopper]

You guys are all awesome!  Thanks for making a FOG newcomer feel super welcome.  What an awesome group you are.

;D

I am impressed at all the info you shared (the articles, info, and cool video). I am also surprised at the responses (pleasantly).  I half expected all the responses or more to shower praises on the Kapex.  This actually makes my decision tougher as I'd love to lean towards the bird in hand.

Don't get me wrong, I am drinking the Kool-Aid, hook line and sinker.  I see an MFT in my future, and someday when I grow up to be a real man (and have a use for one), a Domino.

I went and checked out the Kapex again in a local shop today.  Here are my impressions:

cons-

-I wasn't keen on the plastic feel in the handle
-I'm nervous about calibration of the lasers (vs. the Dewalt XPS light on the other hand seems brilliant as any changes in blade, kerf, etc are automatically captured in the "shadow" of the light.  Granted, it doesn't work outside, but that isn't an issue for me as I am garage bound).  I could see the Kapex lasers needing to be finessed and running the risk of falling out of calibration.  The XPS on the other hand seems stupid proof
-Not as large a capacity for nested crown, and larger cuts (though probably enough for most of what i'd throw at it)
-While moving the saw between the positive stops (not sure i am saying that right, just side to side swivel no bevel), it was super hard to move compared with the Dewalt (or any other miter I have tested for that matter).  The sales-guy said it is a feature so it can stay firm between stops.  I assume this can be adjusted?  If not, I had to put some grunt in swiveling left to right and right to left.
-Price (though not a huge con if it is significantly better.  In my other hobbies {audio equipment, photography, cars, etc} where I have more knowledge I am willing to pay for increases of seat of your pants performance.  I have around $600 into the Dewalt+Heavy Duty Stand, so the Kapex at $1400+$500 or so for a stand is a big jump.  I don't expect to see 3x the performance as diminishing returns are everywhere, though I would be disappointed if the Kapex were…say only 20% better.

Pros:
-It looks cool
-can back to the wall
-Lighter (though I don't really care since it will sit in one spot)
-Obviously more features, angle finder, on board clamps, dust collection (what is the "real world" dust collection improvement?  on paper, it is only around 20% better, I suspect y'all would have better input)
-Less apparent deflection with a 10" blade and more stout slider rails (though when I handled it in the shop, I was able to get a little wiggle at full extension, though much less than the Dewalt)
-Did I mention that it looks cool

Sorry for the barrage of new questions, I am just trying to see "how much better" the Kapex is vs. what I have now.  My concern is that at my experience level, I may not be able to see the difference.  At the same token, down the road I hope to grow into this hobby and have long term visions of building Doors, tables, etc (every time my wife drags me into Pottery Barn or comparable stores, I find myself saying "$2500 for that!!!"  I'd love to be able to make this stuff myself.

So in a real world scenario, if I were to make say 30 cuts of the following:

-Typical inside, outside 45 degree corners for baseboard
-typical inside, outside, 45 degree corners for cabinet crown

What would the final product look like with the Kapex vs. the Dewalt?  ( I hear a lot that the Kapex is "more accurate", I am just curious what that looks like in the finished product once the saw goes away.  Would you look at the miters in the crown and base and say, pooh, look at those gaps, must not have used the Kapex, etc.  Also FWIW, I am doing paint grade everything, so caulk is my friend).

Thanks in advance!

 

[Tinker]

Grasshopper, I think the ninety percent dust collection for the Kapex is somewhat of an understatement.  I have watched demos where hardly a spec of dust has been left for cleanup.
Tinker

 

[Harvey]

I just bought the Kapex (for hobby use) this month. My first mitre saw was a 12 inch non-slider.  Part of the reason for buying the Kapex was frustration with my previous saw cutting stain grade clear pine and oak trim.  The amount of test cuts, sneaking up on cut lines for say, a 88 degree corner on a wall not quite vertical was driving me nuts. The size of the mitre and bevel scales on the Kapex will make those odd angles much easer to get. So far I’ve just done test cutting with the Kapex.  I found that I could half the Kapex’s cut error just by being careful (hand pressure on the saw, letting the blade spin down before lifting and zero clearance inserts). To give you an idea the first cuts were 1mm (1/25”) out on a 10 inch cut (out of the box).
If you want to know the accuracy the Kapex vs your DeWalt I suppose the first question to ask is how accurate is your DeWalt? The Kapex’s supplementary manual describes the four-cut method to calculate accuracy, why not try it out on your current saw?

Here's my last result with careful work (as mentioned) after calibrating the saw. It's less than 0.002 inches over an 8 inch cut.

 

 

[Grasshopper]

Harvey,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post, and congrats on the new saw.

To answer your question about the accuracy of the Dewalt, I actually don't know.  It's sitting in the box unwrapped, which is the main reason for my post.  I wanted to see what experience other FOG users have experienced (ideally with the 780) to help me decide to either "unbox" the Dewalt and settle with it, or return to the store and triple my investment into a new Kapex.

I get why this is an easy choice for a pro who uses it every day.  But what about the occasional hobbyist like myself (who happens to like nice stuff).  If the Dewalt could produce similar results with a little more effort as an example, I'd likely opt to keep it and grow my other Festool pile.  On the other hand, if the Kapex would really show up in my finished product (something I will have to live with) I lean that way.  Finally, if these differences in cut quality depend more on the hands of the user, as a nebwbie…would I even see the difference in the finished product (crown molding, 7 1/4" tall baseboard, 4" casing, 3/8" bulnose, 5"header, etc)?

I just bought the Kapex (for hobby use) this month. My first mitre saw was a 12 inch non-slider.  Part of the reason for buying the Kapex was frustration with my previous saw cutting stain grade clear pine and oak trim.  The amount of test cuts, sneaking up on cut lines for say, a 88 degree corner on a wall not quite vertical was driving me nuts. The size of the mitre and bevel scales on the Kapex will make those odd angles much easer to get. So far I’ve just done test cutting with the Kapex.  I found that I could half the Kapex’s cut error just by being careful (hand pressure on the saw, letting the blade spin down before lifting and zero clearance inserts). To give you an idea the first cuts were 1mm (1/25”) out on a 10 inch cut (out of the box).
If you want to know the accuracy the Kapex vs your DeWalt I suppose the first question to ask is how accurate is your DeWalt? The Kapex’s supplementary manual describes the four-cut method to calculate accuracy, why not try it out on your current saw?

Here's my last result with careful work (as mentioned) after calibrating the saw. It's less than 0.002 inches over an 8 inch cut.

 

[Harvey]

I can’t really answer your question directly, because I haven’t used your saw.  I do think the quality of the work depends as much on the user, as the tool. Check with the seller for their return policy. I think most would accept an open box, but unused saw back . My thought is you should at least check the DeWalt with a straight edge and feeler gauge. If there’s problems (it happens with every maker) you’ll never be happy with it.
You mention 7 1/4” tall baseboard. That has to be cut flat on the DeWalt (or the Kapex), so how’s the bevel adjustment? Can you hit a 44.5 degree bevel easily on it, reproducibly? You don’t have to to plug in the saw to check those out.  One advantage to the DeWalt is it will do nested crown moulding up to 7 1/2” (the Kapex is 6 5/8”). That means cutting mitres vs cutting crown flat & adjusting the mitre and bevel angle. My gut feeling is you can do it with the DeWalt (tons of pros do), but you’ll need time to learn the tool (ditto for the Kapex).

 

[Grasshopper]

Awesome advice.  I think I'll skip to the big box store and play with the bevel just to be sure (I forgot that my base would need to be cut laying down no matter what, as my wife's taste has changed to a tall baseboard).  If I like that, I can carefully unbox the Dewalt and check for square and true.

On the dust collection (I say its not the deal breaker, but if the difference is significant, I should consider it), I read the Kapex does well "for a SCMS" (in other words, it spits quite a bit more dust than other Festools by virtue of it being a miter saw.  Since I won't be doing it in a finished house (maybe the unfinished basement during winter if I decide its time to frame the basement).  What does the Kapex vs. the Dewalt look like in dust collection?  I will be mostly in my garage.  I have the CT22 dust collector.  If I connect a Dewalt, vs. Kapex to the same collection, what does that look like in terms of kicking dust.  in other words:

-Can I keep my convertible parked in the garage "top down" 10', 15' from the Kapex cutting station, but not with the Dewalt, or is either out of the question? 

-Will there be fine dust everywhere courtesy of the big yellow tool, and none with the Kapex excepting in a small 5'x5' space on the floor? 

Knowing this can help push my decision

I can’t really answer your question directly, because I haven’t used your saw.  I do think the quality of the work depends as much on the user, as the tool. Check with the seller for their return policy. I think most would accept an open box, but unused saw back . My thought is you should at least check the DeWalt with a straight edge and feeler gauge. If there’s problems (it happens with every maker) you’ll never be happy with it.
You mention 7 1/4” tall baseboard. That has to be cut flat on the DeWalt (or the Kapex), so how’s the bevel adjustment? Can you hit a 44.5 degree bevel easily on it, reproducibly? You don’t have to to plug in the saw to check those out.  One advantage to the DeWalt is it will do nested crown moulding up to 7 1/2” (the Kapex is 6 5/8”). That means cutting mitres vs cutting crown flat & adjusting the mitre and bevel angle. My gut feeling is you can do it with the DeWalt (tons of pros do), but you’ll need time to learn the tool (ditto for the Kapex).

 

[wow]

in other words:

-Can I keep my convertible parked in the garage "top down" 10', 15' from the Kapex cutting station, but not with the Dewalt, or is either out of the question? 

-Will there be fine dust everywhere courtesy of the big yellow tool, and none with the Kapex excepting in a small 5'x5' space on the floor? 

Knowing this can help push my decision

Great question!

I believe that you would find some fine dust in the convertible even using the Kapex. It's good, but it's not completely dust free.

That said, it will be NOTHING compared to the dust storm you'll get with the big yellow monster. 

 

[Grasshopper]

OK, crap!  Back from the Big Box store. I played with hitting odd angle bevels with the Dewalt and it was tough.  I wanted to see what a 47 degree bevel looked like.  It stops easily at 45, and has adjustments for 33.9 and 22.5.  If you try and eyeball to say a 47 degree bevel and lock down it down, with little force you can get it to slip a few degrees to around 50 degrees every time.

Unless I am missing something, repeatability may be a challenge with the Dewalt with odd angles.

Am I missing something former/current Dewalt owners?

 

[evilcat]

The Milwaukee is a real nice saw. Miters can be set to a tenth of a degree (digital readout).I looked very closely at the bosch axel and dewalt before i purchased the Milwaukee. I scored a great deal on a Kapex or I would still be very happy with the Milwaukee.

 

[RKA]

That's the beauty of the bevel adjustment on the kapex!  The dewalt has the same bevel adjustment you'll find on many other brands of miter saws.

 

[justinh]

Setting the bevel on a 780 is not difficult and with a little bit of practice it is not hard to get accurate and repeatable cuts on this saw.  I have never had the bevel lock slip during a cut.  It is a time tested durable design that I have personally never had a problem using.  On a recent project I used it to cut and fit quite a bit of 8" base without issues.

The dust collection when hooked up to a Midi with a shortened wider diameter hose is very respectable.  I use a cut down Rigid orange hose. I add one of the goofy looking Chopshop hoods when I want better.  Setting up near to a car is not a good idea with any miter saw not just for dust but because they can occasionally throw off cuts.  Murphys Law applies to all saws.

The 780 is not my primary saw. It comes out only when needed. I prefer fixed miters saws to sliding saws for accuracy when the moulding allows for it which on most trim packages is about 90% of the time depending on the miter saw used.  Any slider has the potential for lateral play in the head.  The Kapex tracks better than most but with good technique accurate cuts on any well adjusted, well maintained, professional grade saw with a quality blade are not only possible but quite simple.  No miter saw will do the job for you.

My advice would be to pull out your saw. Check the fences for square to the base and check to see if they are in line with each other.  Check the tables to make sure they are coplanar.  The 780 can occasionally have a choppy feel to the slide. Mine did not. If there is there is a set screw right behind the slide lock that when tightened or loosened adjusts this.  If this doesn't work and any of the other things I mentioned are not correct then return the saw.  Just about anything else can be taken care of with a tune up that I expect to have to do whenever I buy a new saw.  If the above items do check out put a quality blade on it, adjust it for square miter and bevel, and spend some time learning to make all of the cuts that you want to use it for. Take the money you save and use it to pay for any of the other tools that you will find a need for on your project.

 

[BUTTER]

Everything Justinh says above is spot on.

In terms of dust collection, the nature of SCMSs makes it tough.  Another FOG member some time ago posted about modifying a Kapex shroud to fit his Bosch.  Setting up a secondary shroud behind the saw will also help with the dust control.

If you really want to compare apples to apples,  also compare some of the other brands' offerings- the Milwaukee has been very favorably reviewed, and the Bosch's upfront bevel lock and it's miter fine adjustment have been favorites of mine for a decade.

 

[Grasshopper]

Great Post!!!

Thank you Justin, you took a lot of time to help me out. 

My take:

Your post reminds me of this Ansel Adams quote- “The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!”

Similarly, I assume the same could be said for woodworking.  I get caught up sometimes lusting after the gear, when it is the skill that really is the most important "equipment".

Your advice has really been super (as well as others on the FOG), and I particularly appreciate your knowledge of the Dewalt 780.

My insomnia kicked in and I read a ton of other FOG threads on the Kapex.  I think I am now more clear.

I am now weighing the benefit of having having the micro adjustment on the bevel (advantage Kapex), Dust collection, cool angle finder (though I'm not clear how that would help me if I cut laying base down….anyone have a use for the angle finder when they lay the material down?), smaller footprint, giant price, etc.but I'm also comfortable that I could certainly make the Dewalt work as well.

Thanks a ton!!!

One general FOG Kapex question, can someone help me understand the nested crown capacity on the Kapex (in layman's terms…what is the 6 5/8" capacity mean?  Is that measured in diameter.  Sorry for the dumb question, just unsure how big that is in terms of crown).

Setting the bevel on a 780 is not difficult and with a little bit of practice it is not hard to get accurate and repeatable cuts on this saw.  I have never had the bevel lock slip during a cut.  It is a time tested durable design that I have personally never had a problem using.  On a recent project I used it to cut and fit quite a bit of 8" base without issues.

The dust collection when hooked up to a Midi with a shortened wider diameter hose is very respectable.  I use a cut down Rigid orange hose. I add one of the goofy looking Chopshop hoods when I want better.  Setting up near to a car is not a good idea with any miter saw not just for dust but because they can occasionally throw off cuts.  Murphys Law applies to all saws.

The 780 is not my primary saw. It comes out only when needed. I prefer fixed miters saws to sliding saws for accuracy when the moulding allows for it which on most trim packages is about 90% of the time depending on the miter saw used.  Any slider has the potential for lateral play in the head.  The Kapex tracks better than most but with good technique accurate cuts on any well adjusted, well maintained, professional grade saw with a quality blade are not only possible but quite simple.  No miter saw will do the job for you.

My advice would be to pull out your saw. Check the fences for square to the base and check to see if they are in line with each other.  Check the tables to make sure they are coplanar.  The 780 can occasionally have a choppy feel to the slide. Mine did not. If there is there is a set screw right behind the slide lock that when tightened or loosened adjusts this.  If this doesn't work and any of the other things I mentioned are not correct then return the saw.  Just about anything else can be taken care of with a tune up that I expect to have to do whenever I buy a new saw.  If the above items do check out put a quality blade on it, adjust it for square miter and bevel, and spend some time learning to make all of the cuts that you want to use it for. Take the money you save and use it to pay for any of the other tools that you will find a need for on your project.