Which Sander is Best for Me?

[m8]

I'm in the market for a sander.  After looking at the Festool Catalog it appears that ?sander? is not specific enough to make a decision, so let me explain what I will be using it for.  I am preparing to do a lot of work on my 32' fiberglass sailboat.  The first project will be removing old bottom paint and grinding fiberglass in preparation for the new barrier coat and bottom paint.  Unfortunately I will be required to stay in awkward positions for hours a day with the sander above my head and so forth so the ability to have a powerful sander that is also easy to control and light is important.  The next project is to fill various gouges, cracks, etc. with fiberglass and epoxy resin being followed by a sander that will provide a high quality finish in preparation for a high gloss paint finish (a close resemblance to a car finish) on the sides of the vessel above the water line.  These are the two major projects that I have planed but with owning a boat there will be many more projects which include varnishing and various others.  I'm looking for opinions and suggestions on which specific Festool or combination of Festool sanders would work best for me.  Also I have been researching sanders online and I have concluded that people?s opinions vary greatly on Festool tools.  Some people love them and others say that after owning them they would rather save the money and get a lower priced tool.  As of right now I'm neutral because I never have used a single Festool.  I've used every other manufacture including, Bosh, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable, etc.  They hold up to the most demanding applications (i.e. fiberglass shaping, metal work, being dropped, and just basically not being taken care of properly) and still are half the price.  So I guess I have two questions:

Which Sander is best suited for me?
and
Is the investment in Festool worth it?

I greatly appreciate everyone?s suggestions and opinions.

 

[nickao]

Boat work means Rotex, period(at least for one of the sanders).

I have sanded plenty of boats and the 6" Rotex is a godsend. I would get a ETS 150/3 to go along with it for the areas you want flawless.

If money is an issue the Bosch 1250 DES is just as good as the Rotex, some say better for 1/2 the cost(I like the Rotex).

If you can afford more than one and possibly three sanders the 8" Fein Rotary for fast removal on the bottom of the boat,combined with a Festool Rotex 6"  and Festool 150/3 is a combination of three sanders that will get the boat done.
They are the three I use and it is a fantastic combination if you can swing the cost of three expensive sanders.

I will add the Fein 8" orbital soon also, but for a boat I would start with the Fein 8" Rotary for it shear speed of removal and excellent dust collection. You must have a second sander with the Fein rotary as it is a monster and to heavy to use for all the areas you need sanded.

The newest Fein 8" orbital and Rotary both have effective through the pad dust collection(98%) and they really are a great choice for a boat in my opinion. You will need a smaller 6" like the Rotex though, as I said the 8" Feins are monster sanders in weight and size.

 

[John Langevin]

m8,

Welcome to the FOG forum! Questions similiar to yours are frequently asked here and typically the respsondents need some more information from the thread starter before they can offer any meaningful suggestions. So here goes:

Can you post pictures of the hull and the condition of the finish?
Are there many coats of paint and rough or severly damaged areas? i.e. does it require coarse grinding or conventional sanding (like repainting a car)?
How much time/money are you willing to spend and what level of finish quality are you seeking?
Will the intended work add significant value to the vessel or is it primarily for maintenance/protection?

Like you I have used various other makes/types of sanders, but since I began using FESTOOL, I can assure you that there are significant differences:

Very smooth, quiet operation with less vibration
Variable speed which is very important when removing or finish sanding paints and finishes
A variety of specifically engineered abrasives that offer superior performance and long-life
Used in conjunction with a CT dust extractor a minimal amount of dust escape
The variable speed on the dust extractor when combined with the central air-supply hole on the sander and abrasive minmizes corms on the abrasive and greatly extends abrasive life

Many here will tell you (and I agree) that the Festool System makes sanding much more efficient and pleasurable.

If you do a forum search on ROTEX, RO150, and RAS 115E you will find addtional discussion on this topic.

 

[m8]

Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of the hull above the water line showing the specific gouges and scratches, etc.  They range from 1 square foot of a "rash" (multiple scratches ranging in depth from 1/32" to 1/4") to long scratches that the previous owner caused bumping into the dock.  I attempted to attached pictures showing the hull below and above the water line but I received an error saying that the post was too large.  I put (Picture #) in specific spots in my message and will post the pictures in individual posts to reduce overall size of message.  Below the water line I will be removing the many layers of paint and going down to bare fiberglass.  (Picture 2) In some of the pictures you can see a few "blisters" located below the water line these will be ground out and filled with fiberglass and epoxy resin followed by a sanding to smooth them over.  (Picture 3)  Below the water line is just for protection and not for appearance.  Above the water line is a different story.  I will start by filling in the gouges and scratches followed by rough sanding.  This will be followed by a high build primer smoothed out by board and hand sanding.  The end results will be close to an automotive finish, i.e. high gloss, "wet" appearance.  (Picture 1)  Quality is more important to me then money but I still have to stay within reason.  My work schedule provides me with large amounts of time off.  I hope the pictures come through on my post, if not I will make another attempt.  I appreciate the responses and thank you for the welcome. 

 

[m8]

Evening after "zipping" the picture(s) they are still too large.

 

[nickao]

M8 the more I think about the more I really think you need a true rotary only sander like the Fein 8" or Festool RAS. I use the Rotex everyday doing work far less than what you describe and the Rotex just could not cut it, the reason I jumped on the Fein.

You need the power of the Festool RAS rotary sander, but you need it in a much larger size than 5" that the RAS offers. The RAS is more powerful than the Rotex.

Just imagine the Festool RAS rotary in an 8" version with the dust collection of the Rotex guys, that is what the Fein is all about

http://www.feinus.com/p/NEWdustfree/New-8rot.htm

The street price for the linked sander is about 625.00

 

[rwdawson]

m8,

I agree with Nickao.  The Rotex 150 and ETS 150/3 are generally regarded as the two top sanders (at least by Nick and myself).

My first exposure to Festool was as a student in the Wood Construction Center at Seattle Central Community College.  I spent a couple of quarters in Boat Building before transferring to the Cabinet program.  The more advanced boat builders made extensive use of the Rotex 150 and loved it.  They did not like its predecessor because it was under powered.  The new, current version turned out to be the real deal.  My understanding is that the Rotex 150 is used extensively in the boat building trade, which should be enough of an endorsement.

One important factor in the work you anticipate doing is that of dust collection.  This is very important and should very serious consideration in your work environment, regardless of sanding equipment selected.  Its relevance can not be over emphasized.  I haven't done any boat work with my Rotex, but have refinished a floor; dust collection was outstanding.  There are several threads on this site which deal with this issue.

John raises some very worthwhile points and I agree with him as well, except instead of suggesting  "a minimal amount of dust escape" I would say "virtually no dust escape".  It's that good.

Welcome to what I think is one of the very best web sites on the internet.  I'm sure you will gain an enormous amount of knowledge from some of the best and friendliest woodworkers around.  I know I have.

Richard

 

[nickao]

Evening after "zipping" the picture(s) they are still too large.

Go here and download the program. If you need help let us know. It's simple to use the irfanveiw "save as" feature to reduce the size of the pics.

http://www.irfanview.com/

 

[m8]

Once I go to "Save As" what do I save it as?

 

[nickao]

Here are your pics I have to get into the shop! Rotex in the Rotary mode(or the Bosch 1250)is the minimum sander to deal with that!

For irfanview "save as"  jpg, then move the slider in the upper right corner to about 30%, then hit save.

Or hit the image tab then scroll to resize/resample to change the overall size of the pics as opposed to just the quality as moving the slider does..

The second time around I used the image button as even when I reduced the quality the pics were just to big, I think they are better now.

Welcome to the forum! Going to make sawdust, bye!

Nick

 

[AlexThePalex]

  Unfortunately I will be required to stay in awkward positions for hours a day with the sander above my head and so forth so the ability to have a powerful sander that is also easy to control and light is important. 

Powerful & light and easy to control is sort of a contradiction in terms.

Both the Rotex and the RAS sound like good machines for this job but they weigh both 2.3 kilograms so be prepared to get VERY tired arms after sanding above your head for a while.

... being followed by a sander that will provide a high quality finish in preparation for a high gloss paint finish (a close resemblance to a car finish) on the sides of the vessel above the water line. 

The Rotex, if properly handled, is capable of delivering a high quality finish while the RAS is not. The ETS 150/3 gives an even better finish than the Rotex, if I have to believe the majority of comments I have read here. Keep in mind though, that they talk about the ETS 150/3's finishing capabilities on wood and not on fiberglass. You don't need to be no where near as perfect in sanding on fiberglass as on wood since fiberglass itself is a much rougher material.

However, if you want only one machine the Rotex is the one to go as it is the most all-round sander. On the other hand, if you don't mind spending a bit more, then nickao's suggested combination sounds extremely delightful.

Is the investment in Festool worth it?

I can't really say yet since I only got one Festool now (a second sander soon). But I must say I am extremely satisfied with the job the R0150 is doing. I'm not a real woodworker like most of the guys here but I have an extensive history in paint application and I have a lot of experience with all kinds of sanders for over 20 years now and I simply like this one the best of all I have ever used.

I like the fact that you can switch between two modes on the Ro150. It comes in very handy. And it's very powerful. Of course the Festool is not the only one which has this ability, both Bosch and Makita also have a model that can do this. I haven't used them so I don't know how they are. I have read positive reviews of both of them though.

What I haven't read about them though is the dust removal. And this is where Festool is famous for and the RO150 also excels. Like I said, I have used a lot of sanders already in my life, and I always hated the dust. Especially when working indoors. And what was my big surprise when I did my first job with the Rotex? NO DUST! Hardly a spec. I was truly amazed and pretty impressed. And I didn't even have a fancy pansy professional shop vac, just a 20 year old home vac with questionable suction. In fact, I am so impressed that my next sander which I'll be buying within a week is also a Festool, simply because the dust extraction is so effective. Oh yeah, the Rotex is sturdy. I already dropped it 2 meters down the stairs, and nothing happened.

So in my opinion, at least this one machine is worth it's money over any other comparable one.

 

[nickao]

The Bosch 1250 is just as good as the Festool sanders with dust collection if you use a CT dust collector or similar, same for the Fein sanders great dust collection.

 

[John Langevin]

I haven't used the Fein, but agree that the 8" diameter is the way to go. I would also look into air -powered sanders (inckuding FESTOOL) as they may be lighter and are very durable. I would shy away from the RAS115 in this application unless you were going to followup with an orbital; I think you would be letting yourself in for a lot of filling/fairing followed by even more sanding.

 

[nickao]

Well at the shipyard in Waukegan IL, I have seen the guys and they all pretty much use the Fein 8" rotary and/or orbital sanders. A lot of the Fein multi tool too as well for in between the Teak decking strips on the wooden boats. If you check boat web sites for supplies you will find they do sell Festool, but usually recommend the Feins for the boat Hull applications first and foremost.

 

[m8]

I appreciate everyone's suggestions, I'll think over the information and probably end up asking more questions.  Once again thank you for your help and if you have any other ideas I'm always open for the advice.

 

[BMH]

I have a RAS 115 that I love and have sanded by hand, in my youth, wood decks and hulls. The RAS 115 is not made for a fiberglass hull that is still in good shape. The Fein, which I don't have, with it's larger pad and good dust collection would be my first choice for the hull. Buy the best quality sand paper you can find and a good respirator. Once you are finished with the hull you can look at other sander for the rest of the boat.

A good power tool helps but it is still a long tedious job, good luck

 

[m8]

I've decided on the Bosch 1250 DEVS.  Any suggestions on where to get the best deal?  As always I appreciate everyones help.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I've decided on the Bosch 1250 DEVS.  Any suggestions on where to get the best deal?  As always I appreciate everyones help.

If you buy this sander please let us know how it works out for you.

I can't help but believe the Bosch won't live up to the it's Festool counterpart (RO150). Festool tools are generally built with higher quality materials and to higher standards. I've read the Bosch has a lot of vibration, this would be a concern to me. I don't know what accessories are available for the Bosch but I know the Rotex sanders has a ton of sanding pads and felt, sponge polishing pads. Festool tools cost more but they tend to bring a lot more to the table that other cheaper tools. And Festool USA has great service should you ever need it. Food for thought. 

P.S. No one mentioned this but you could look at the RO125, it would make sanding over your haed much easier.

 

[nickao]

The Bosch is just as good as the Festool.

It actually acts a lot like the Rotex and beginners tend to get it bouncing all over the sandpaper. It is the same as the reports on the Festool Rotex. Some just do not get how the combo machines work. As many report it contains more metal than the plastic Festool Rotex. Many also say it is overall  far more durable than the Festool after taking them out to job sites day after day.For a guy that wants two sanders for a crew or needs a bunch of sanders the Bosch is probably the way to go.

The only reason I choose to usually use my Rotex and the Bosch is borrowed out to a family member is the sandpaper from Festool. Using the custom sandpaper with the Rotex puts it just above the Bosch, as far as the machine the Bosch 1250 DEVS will surprise the heck out of you and you will wonder how it can be so cheap. Or you will wonder why the Rotex is so much money.

I am only surprised you never tried that sander Brice. I have only ever seen on negative reveiw and I believe the guy just does not know how to use the combo sanders.

Bosch 1250 Amazon

 

[justinmcf]

thanks for the info on the bosch nickao.

here in oz the bosch retails for AU$485.00

the festool rotex 150 retails for AU$879.00

the festool is close to double the price!

i am a big fan of festool but this is ridiculous!

i know which model i will be buying for my employees.

cheers, justin.