Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?

[Lemwise]

Here in Europe there are loads of manufacturers who make sliding table saws. Altendorf, Martin, SCM, Robland and Casadei being the most common ones. Where there ever US based manufacturers who made sliding table saws and if there were, why did they stop making them?

 

[nickao]

As far as I know the closet thing will be a US company called MARTIN Woodworking Machines Corp that is a sibsiduiary of a German company Otto MARTIN Maschinenbau.

So still made in Germany, but technically a US Company. Their sliders have been available in the US for near 50 years I think, at least in the 1970's the saws were here in the US.
http://www.martin-usa.com/products/?type=sawing

In 1999  Baileigh Industrial started up out of WI, USA. The sliders are sold as  Baileigh Saws. I am not sure they make the saws themselves though, it looks they might.  They consider themselves an international company, but being based in Manitowoc, WI they seem to qualify as a USA company making sliding table saws. Someone here probably knows if the saw are truly US made or not. Some of the the other tools they make appear to use parts from all different parts of the world.

Okay it appears many of the Baileigh Machines are made in China to Baileigh specifications, others made in Taiwan. Still it's an American company selling Sliders. Made in China doesn't in itself make the tools poor, it's always the main company's responsibility to make sure the Chinese  factories pump out the quality and keep to the specifications.
http://www.baileigh.com/woodworking/table-saws

 

[lwoirhaye]

Northfield still makes sliding table saws in the USA.  They are of an older style and not designed for cutting sheet goods.

As to why American machine makers never produced format-style saws, I suppose there just wasn't money in it.  Delta  rebadged  SCMI and Invicta format saws.  I think Powermatic rebadged some saws as well.

 

[Lemwise]

As to why American machine makers never produced format-style saws, I suppose there just wasn't money in it.

But the fact that in the US your only real option is to buy one from a European company shows there's lots of money to be made on format style saws. If there wasn't Martin, Altendorf, Robland and SCM wouldn't be selling them there.

 

[Gregor]

As to why American machine makers never produced format-style saws, I suppose there just wasn't money in it.

But the fact that in the US your only real option is to buy one from a European company shows there's lots of money to be made on format style saws. If there wasn't Martin, Altendorf, Robland and SCM wouldn't be selling them there.

Depends, it's also possible that the european manufacturers are still able make them at the current price points as they already have all the tooling in place - while the cost of setting up a new production could be prohibitive these days.

 

[Bohdan]

....while the cost of setting up a new production could be prohibitive these days.

So why weren't they setting up at the time that the European manufacturers were, as there obviously was a market in Europe.

 

[Lemwise]

There was and still is a market in the US. A sliding table saw is the only viable option for cutting sheet goods in a production environment such as a shipyard or furniture making business. Why would it have been any different in the US at the time when European manufacturers starting making them?

 

[kevinculle]

A sliding table saw is the only viable option for cutting sheet goods in a production environment such as a shipyard or furniture making business.

N/C router?

 

[Lemwise]

A cnc router is nice if it can run 8 hours per day to pay for itself.

 

[Gregor]

A sliding table saw is the only viable option for cutting sheet goods in a production environment such as a shipyard or furniture making business.

N/C router?

Or beam saw:

 

[kevinculle]

A cnc router is nice if it can run 8 hours per day to pay for itself.

I'm not talking about the Rockler hobby stuff...the man said PRODUCTION!

 

[Lemwise]

I should have said professional environment instead of production environment.

 

[antss]

The answer is about the same as why there aren't really any metric tape measure manufacturers.  The market doesn't warrant it.

Remember,  American cabinets have predominantly been face frame construction for eons. A format/slider is less of an advantage for this style of construction and coupled with the higher cost, remains in less demand.

I don't buy the CNC arguemenet. You really need to used every piece of expensive machinery 8 hours a day to pay for itself whether it's a CNC , format saw, edgebander or planer. 

European cabinet shops making veneered or laminate  doors are less dependant on wide belt sanders or planers - something most U.S. Shops wouldn't want to be without.

 

[nickao]

I forgot of course Grizzly sells True sliding table saws as well and have done since the 1980's.

The saws are designed by Grizzly made in China and Taiwan. I guess if Bosch can have some of their  premium tools made in China and people call them German, Grizzly can do the same.

http://www.grizzly.com/search?q=(categoryid:530002)

 

[Lemwise]

A good friend of mine has Altendorf WA8TE (with electric height and angle adjustment) in his shop and it's made in China under the supervision of Altendorf. And let me tell you it's a great saw. Everything runs and adjusts very smoothly and it's a joy to use. I really can't fault it. Made in China doesn't mean it's a bad product. I have a Dutch designed and made Harwi sliding table saw and there's no real difference between his and my saw. I do like my saw better though because I'm Dutch myself and I know the owner of the factory.

 

[Klemm]

on the topic of Chinese quality: it really depends if the North American or European manufacturer is willing to put the sustained effort into developing a strong supplier relationship. And - is willing to forego the lowest Chinese price and instead insists on his Chinese supplier raising his performance to the level he is also willing to pay for.

I have seen both extremes in China. You get what INspect - not what you EXpect.
Sawstop's Industrial  tablesaw is built from Chinese and Taiwan made parts and apparently meets expectations in the US.
Last week I visited a production shop here in Florida and found a nice looking ALTENDORF retired in the back - not productive enough.

Having grown up in Germany and worked throughout Europe I can tell you that there has been a premium on productivity and innovation in Europe since the end of WWII and the ensuing manpower shortage. Just look at the European machine tool industry vs. the US - similar picture. The small US machine tool  manufacturers were bought out by conglomerates in the 70's and few of them nurtured as their founding families had done . Compare that to Europe where closely held ownership is widespread and ownership invests for the long-term benefit of the business.  (FESTO! etc)
In the US the 90-day financial horizon dictates management decisions.
My impression is that in the US there exists a greater willingness by small cabinet shops to stay with older methods longer.

Perhaps I see this all wrong?
Hans

 

[antss]

I think you're spot on Hans.  But part of it is just local preference.

We don't see barrel grip jigsaws from many manufacturers here either. It's just not something many guys want or use.  You don't see many , practically zero, pickup trucks in EU countries.  Guys there just don't want them.

 

[tjbnwi]

I think you're spot on Hans.  But part of it is just local preference.

We don't see barrel grip jigsaws from many manufacturers here either. It's just not something many guys want or use.  You don't see many , practically zero, pickup trucks in EU countries.  Guys there just don't want them.

The vast majority of times I use jigsaws inverted. Barrel grip is the only way to go.

Tom

 

[Lemwise]

on the topic of Chinese quality: it really depends if the North American or European manufacturer is willing to put the sustained effort into developing a strong supplier relationship. And - is willing to forego the lowest Chinese price and instead insists on his Chinese supplier raising his performance to the level he is also willing to pay for.

You can bet your bum Altendorf is on top of QC. They can't afford to taint their reputation with a cheap made, low quality saw.

Last week I visited a production shop here in Florida and found a nice looking ALTENDORF retired in the back - not productive enough.

I find that strange. Even the smallest shipyard over here usually has a sliding table saw (this also goes for furniture makers). When the 2008 crisis hit the sector I started working for temp agencies and they sent me to shipyards all over the province of Friesland and everywhere I went they had one. A sliding table saw is such a useful and common machine here. Maybe they didn't know how to fully take advantage of it?

Having grown up in Germany and worked throughout Europe I can tell you that there has been a premium on productivity and innovation in Europe since the end of WWII and the ensuing manpower shortage. Just look at the European machine tool industry vs. the US - similar picture. The small US machine tool  manufacturers were bought out by conglomerates in the 70's and few of them nurtured as their founding families had done . Compare that to Europe where closely held ownership is widespread and ownership invests for the long-term benefit of the business.  (FESTO! etc)
In the US the 90-day financial horizon dictates management decisions.

I do know that here in Europe the founding family of companies such as Harwi, Altendorf, Martin, Casadei, Robland and SCM is still the owner or at least heavily involved. That creates a strong commitment and incentive to stay on the course of high quality machines.

My impression is that in the US there exists a greater willingness by small cabinet shops to stay with older methods longer.

Why is there a willingness not to move forward and innovate?

 

[Lemwise]

I think you're spot on Hans. But part of it is just local preference.

We don't see barrel grip jigsaws from many manufacturers here either. It's just not something many guys want or use. You don't see many, practically zero, pickup trucks in EU countries. Guys there just don't want them.

The way a jigsaw works, the ergonomics and how you hold and use it doesn't change from country to country. The size of the roads, space in cities and fuel price is different over here. In Europe fuel prices are higher, most people live close to their job and we have better public transport. These things combined make a pickup truck a more expensive choice.