Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?

[antss]

Lem - price almost always has something to do with it.  Sliders/format saws are more expensive over here.  What effect do you think that has on adoption ?

Ever been to SanFranscisco or NewYork ? They are every bit as tight and congested as London, Paris or Berlin.  Yet guys still drive pickups in both for trade work.

As far as the jigsaws go, you're just mis informed.  In the U.S. the overwhelming number of jigsaw sales are top handle models. This means you hold it on top of the handle to guide it while cutting from the top side of the work.  No one will grip it by the barrel and cut from underneath.  In the EU the favored model is a barrel grip which has no handle to grasp at all , and cuts are often made from below the work.

So yes, the country you're in does influence how or which tool gets adopted.

 

[Lemwise]

Is there a particular reason why carpenters in the US traditionally favor a top handled jigsaw? I mean, a barrel grip offers much more control and precision and you can make underhanded cuts with it.

 

[Michael Kellough]

"Maybe they didn't know how to fully take advantage of it?"

That's it. True for jigsaws too. Only those that know better use the tool the way you do.

In the states even professional woodworkers have very little training. Poorly thought out practices and misconceptions about tools are passed on in the vernacular on-the-job process of imitation rather than training.

We would be interested to know what your training in woodworking consisted of.

 

[Lemwise]

My first real training as a shipwright started at a school called Intertec. It was an initiative by several shipyards to give young people a preliminary training and introduce them to the world of boatbuilding. It was an 18 month course and they taught the basics of woodworking and how to set-up and safely use power tools and woodworking machines. From there on out I went to the "Centrum Vakopleidingen" which translates to something like Centre for Trades Education. This was a school set up and run by the Dutch unemployment agency. This was a 2 year course. It consisted of 70% practice and 30% theory. They worked closely with several shipyards and if you completed the course successfully there was a spot waiting for you as an apprentice at one of the shipyards. After my education I started as an apprentice at Aquanaut, a well respected Dutch shipyard. The apprenticeship lasted 4 years and then I officially got a full-time job with them as a shipwright.

Nowadays there's an official state recognised trades school (this was started years ago). The education they receive there consists of 2 phases and each phase lasts 2 years. Phase one is all the basic woodworking stuff, getting to know all the machines they will be using, personal safety, health aspects and lots of theory. In phase 2 students go to work as an apprentice (paid) at a company 4 days per week and they go to school one day per week. After successfully completing the second phase of their education students receive a diploma that's recognised country wide by every company that has anything to do with woodworking. The company they started at as an apprentice then gives them a full-time job and they continue their apprenticeship. And the companies that participate need to meet certain requirement in order to be certified as a teaching company. To make it more attractive for companies to take on an apprentice these jobs are subsidised by the government. Each participating company receives €5000 per year for each apprentice for a duration of 3 years.

 

[nickao]

Is there a particular reason why carpenters in the US traditionally favor a top handled jigsaw? I mean, a barrel grip offers much more control and precision and you can make underhanded cuts with it.

I hate barrel grip. My hands are to small and I can personally make much better fine adjustments using a D Handle.  With the barrel I feel like I am going to drop the thing and just cant control it.Believe me I tried to like the barrel grip, but  I just don't see what everyone else sees, I just dont like them at all.

I bought 5 jig saws and played with them all for 30 days and kept the Bosch D handle.

I don't believe it's an American thing at all, many of my woodworking American friends prefer the barrel handle. Actually, I am one of the few that use the D handle. Going back as far as my 20's  the guys on site right here in IL, USA used  barrel grip Bosch on the job sites and I hated them then. Back then the better tools could only be bought at certain tool stores, but we could get almost anything used across the pond  from Berland's House of Tools and a few other  places. So the barrel grips have long been used by tradesman in the USA.

Back to sliders, there were sliders being manufactured in the USA as far back as  the 1920's, I think someone mentioned Northfield.  These were mostly for factories(some of them could use up to 14" or 16" blades I think), those just never trickled down to DIY users or small sites for many reasons, money and size are two. Heck, once ply came on the scene big in the US Northfield made a machine that did nothing but stack plywood up on pallets going to and coming off their sliding table saws. It was A huge monstrosity that just stacked plywood 8 or 10 feet high, but designed to mostly work in conjunction with sliding table saws.

 

[antss]

It's a localized thing then Dovetail. Almost no one around the southeast uses a barrel grip for high end trim work. I'm also in Colorado and SoCal on projects from time to time and don't see them there either.

I have at least two of each type and I prefer the top handle too.  I will say that since I got the new Bosch 12v barrel grip that I have been I have been reaching for that more often simply because of the convenience and its small size. DT - you may want to give it a look because of that. It's not a replacement for a fullsized saw though.

Michael - careful about acusing people of being un or improperly trained.  Keep in mind which improperly trained fellas kept your island from being wiped off the face of the earth by the guys from across the Channel.  Perhaps we should discuss drivers Ed ?  You guys still drive on the wrong side of the road.  Do you accept that as being improperly trained ? I wouldn't think so.

The slope can become very slippery when mud starts being slung.

 

[nickao]

It's a localized thing then Dovetail. Almost no one around the southeast uses a barrel grip for high end trim work. I'm also in Colorado and SoCal on projects from time to time and don't see them there either.

I have at least two of each type and I prefer the top handle too.  I will say that since I got the new Bosch 12v barrel grip that I have been I have been reaching for that more often simply because of the convenience and its small size. DT - you may want to give it a look because of that. It's not a replacement for a fullsized saw though.

Michael - careful about acusing people of being un or improperly trained.  Keep in mind which improperly trained fellas kept your island from being wiped off the face of the earth by the guys from across the Channel.  Perhaps we should discuss drivers Ed ?  You guys still drive on the wrong side of the road.  Do you accept that as being improperly trained ? I wouldn't think so.

The slope can become very slippery when mud starts being slung.

\\

Regional, maybe.  I grew up in the Chicago area so it's a lot of people, a lot of stores and a lot of construction, but so is southern CA.

I don't like any cordless 12 V jig I have ever tried and I tried them all. I actually kept the Bosch 12 V and the Milwaukee(which isn't very good at all), but I rarely use the Bosch as it just isn't powerful nor smooth enough. I use my corded Bosch mostly, it just cuts so much smoother than the 12V jigs.  As I said I bought 5 jigs and tested them, I actually bought 4 different cordless as well. 12 V jigs from my perspective still  have a long way to go.  I will say the 4 ah batteries last a long while.

The only barrel grip small enough for my liking is the Milwaukee(but the jig itself isn't good), I can't get my hand around the Bosch. It still takes a hand as large as needed for a traditionally barrel grip to get the hand all the way around because of that square portion.

Probably should be in a jigsaw thread, maybe Ill post picture of how my hand holds these saws there.

[attachimg=1]

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

A 10'6" stroke sliding table saw is painfully slow compared to a beam saw or a vertical panel saw.

Beam saws take up space, but you can stack and cut multiple sheets.  Panel saws don't take up much floor space.

If I had to cut sheet goods all the time, cnc beam saw.

You see long stroke sliding saws in smaller shops, when it gets past a smaller shop, you better be buying some real production machinery because you will never make up for the time spent loading and cutting one sheet at a time.

The market isn't big enough for a bunch of USA manufacturers to toss their hats in as well. 

I have two 10'6" stroke sliders and a 57" stroke scmi slider, the 57 is one of the most useful table saws I have ever owned.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I want to add to this that there is no need here to use a slider to straighten lumber either, that's what an SLR is for or even a gang rip.

I believe it all comes down to space. I could not imagine trying to be productive if all I had was a slider.  I can run lumber through my slrs at over 175' per minute. Can't straight line on a slider that fast. 

Plus you can't run a dado stack on any new slider. My old Martin 75s could sling a 2" wide stack. 

Even my mid 90s scmis can run an inch wide.

 

[Cheese]

It's a localized thing then Dovetail. Almost no one around the southeast uses a barrel grip for high end trim work. I'm also in Colorado and SoCal on projects from time to time and don't see them there either.

Maybe just another rendition of the old sidewinder vs worm gear song... [popcorn]

 

[Lemwise]

Today i finally had some time to square up my slider. I used the 12345 method with half a sheet of plywood (122x122) and I ended up with the cross cut arm out of square by 0.05mm over approximately 122cm. I then checked the sheet of plywood with my big speed square which is out by 0.02mm over 1 meter and there's a tiny bit difference at the end of the square. I'm happy with the result.

I also think I know why sliders are so common here compared to the US but correct me if I'm wrong. We use a lot of plywood topped with veneer or HPL for boat interiors. Being able to do a square cut while scoring the underside to get a clean cut on both sides is a big time saver. Another thing that's a deciding factor for most small shops here is that a slider is seen as a one machine does it all type of deal. I'll give you an example. A few weeks ago my jointer was out of service so I put a rip blade on my slider and used it to straighten and square up a slab of wood for door frames. Without it I wouldn't have been able to continue.

 

[Lemwise]

Michael - careful about acusing people of being un or improperly trained.  Keep in mind which improperly trained fellas kept your island from being wiped off the face of the earth by the guys from across the Channel.

Are you really trying to take credit for the actions of you (great)grandparents? That's really low dude. Do you know no shame?

 

[LooseSox]

I want to add to this that there is no need here to use a slider to straighten lumber either, that's what an SLR is for or even a gang rip.

I believe it all comes down to space. I could not imagine trying to be productive if all I had was a slider.  I can run lumber through my slrs at over 175' per minute. Can't straight line on a slider that fast. 

Plus you can't run a dado stack on any new slider. My old Martin 75s could sling a 2" wide stack. 

Even my mid 90s scmis can run an inch wide.

Probably due to dado stacks not being allowed use in the EU anymore. If you can't use a dado stack in the country you intend to sell the saw in, why bother engineering it to accept one? They'll never sell enough units in the US to make it a worth while investment.

 

[egmiii]

My Felder KF700s was delivered last week with dado capability.

Dado stacks are not an option in the EU, but Felder provides an option for US customers. So I wouldn't say no new sliders can accept dados.

Speaking as a hobbyist, with limited woodworking experience, a slider provides safety, accuracy, and capabilities beyond what the traditional cabinet saw provides. A guy with 30 years in the field could likely run circles around me with a Harbor Freight jobsite saw, but a slider can level the playing field for the novice. I think the cost, weight, and space requirements limit the appeal to the hobby market. I can't speak to the limited adoption in commercial environments.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

My Martin t75s needed about 20' x 20' just for the saw and the full stroke. Best part of those is you could push the sliding beam forward and still use it like a regular saw.
Ripping lumber on a 126" slider is almost impossible. Can't stand to right of beam and work comfortably, can't rip with slider with out some sort of jig, plus to support the fence you have all the table parts hanging off sliding beam.  That's why I liked the old Martin's, the short stroke scmi I have.  I find the work arounds for processing solid lumber on a long slider to be a bigger pain than it's worth. 
I still wouldn't want to have one as my only saw. 

 

[Lemwise]

can't rip with slider with out some sort of jig

I find the work arounds for processing solid lumber on a long slider to be a bigger pain than it's worth.

Are you serious? I process solid wood on my slider all the time. It's the easiest and fastest way there is and I do it without a jig or clamping.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

can't rip with slider with out some sort of jig

I find the work arounds for processing solid lumber on a long slider to be a bigger pain than it's worth.

Are you serious? I process solid wood on my slider all the time. It's the easiest and fastest way there is and I do it without a jig or clamping.

Yeah, I am serious. I mean you can, but you at reaching over or around the beam, you can't comfortably stand to the right of the beam and use the saw to rip lumber. It's awkward, uncomfortable and I feel almost dangerous.

The beam for the slider sticks out past the front of the saw 3 feet.

I have the clamps, shoes, etc. For both my 126" stroke saws, they are never the first saw I want to use to rip lumber.

 

[Lemwise]

English isn't my native language so could you explain to me what you mean with the beam of the saw? I don't reach over or around anything when I'm ripping lumber on my slider. I don't understand.

 

[egmiii]

English isn't my native language so could you explain to me what you mean with the beam of the saw? I don't reach over or around anything when I'm ripping lumber on my slider. I don't understand.

I'm not sure what size slider you have, but on a 126" slider, the part of the saw under the sliding table is about 6 feet long. Which is about 18-24" beyond the body of the saw, front and rear, hence the need to walk around it. Your entire body is to the right of the blade when standing behind it like a traditional cabinet saw. Some find this awkward when ripping.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

English isn't my native language so could you explain to me what you mean with the beam of the saw? I don't reach over or around anything when I'm ripping lumber on my slider. I don't understand.

The beam is the part the slider is mounted to, slides on.
It's 126" long too.  I don't like leaning over that and reaching around the blade/guard. It's slow to clamp it down with the t slot on the sliding rail,  not interested in making a fritz and Franz jig, messing with parrall fences, etc.  I want to set my fence and rip my lumber.

I rarely use a saw without a stock feeder, I rarely use a table saw to rip lumber anymore. Nothing better than a SLR. 

I get not everyone has the space or power for a 6k pound, 20hp slr, but as far as production goes, no slider will keep up with it or a beam saw.