Why buy a jointer when you can use a router table?

[MichaelW2014]

thank you all for your replies. i feel well informed at this point.

i think hand-planing or paying someone else to mill my lumber is how i will proceed for the next year or two until i can buy a hammer or machine of similar quality.

i have a couple of remaining questions that I might as well as now that I have the opportunity:

1. can one use his festool ct vacuum for chip removal on a jointer or planer? is it powerful enough? is the tube wide enough? how is the performance in this tasK?

2. have any owners of the Hammer A3 used the mortising machine? How did they find the performance?

thanks again

 

[w802h]

More than any tool the jointer changed the quality of the product I am able to produce.  I have a 6" Long Bed General International Jointer that I hook up to a 1 HP dust collection unit of the same manufacturer with a 4" hose.  The DC was getting overwhelmed on wide passes with near flat boards.  I now have a garbage can with a couple of fittings attached to a piece of plywood for a lid to create a cyclone.  While it starts to spill into the main collection at only 1/4 full, the system no longer gets clogged.  I use this for my planer too.  In short, I think the small diameter hose on a CT is probably grossly inadequate for larger boards.  While I plan on upgrading to an 8" machine, a 6" could be a good start; you can probably find a suitable machine from a good manufacturer on craigslist that can stop gap your needs.  Sometimes you will need to rejoint lumber when it is resawn or find it moved the day after it is redimensioned.  It's really handy to have the ability to straighten a piece of wood at any time. 

 

[MichaelW2014]

More than any tool the jointer changed the quality of the product I am able to produce.  I have a 6" Long Bed General International Jointer that I hook up to a 1 HP dust collection unit of the same manufacturer with a 4" hose.  The DC was getting overwhelmed on wide passes with near flat boards.  I now have a garbage can with a couple of fittings attached to a piece of plywood for a lid to create a cyclone.  While it starts to spill into the main collection at only 1/4 full, the system no longer gets clogged.  I use this for my planer too.  In short, I think the small diameter hose on a CT is probably grossly inadequate for larger boards.  While I plan on upgrading to an 8" machine, a 6" could be a good start; you can probably find a suitable machine from a good manufacturer on craigslist that can stop gap your needs.  Sometimes you will need to rejoint lumber when it is resawn or find it moved the day after it is redimensioned.  It's really handy to have the ability to straighten a piece of wood at any time. 

thanks for the input. i will probably refer to this when the time comes for me to buy a machine and a dust collection unit.

i hate working with crooked or uneven wood. it makes me sick man.

 

[semenza]

Plus you will be emptying a CT  constantly if using it to plane and joint.  When I use a CT33 with the HL850 it doesn't take much planing to fill it. 

Seth

 

[Birdhunter]

When and not if you buy a jointer AND a planer, go big. I initially bought a 6" jointer and a bench top planer. I took a loss when I had to upgrade to a helical head 8" jointer and a big helical head planer.

There is no way you can dimension rough lumber successfully without a good jointer/planer combination.

 

[Brev]

When milling rough stock you typically flatten one face and one edge on a jointer before final dimensioning on a thickness planer for the fastest and most accurate results. A router table isn't cut out for this job.

I am surprised it took this long into the discussion to mention face jointing. This is the FIRST part of milling any wood.

 

[jacko9]

I've said it before and I'll mention it again, wood moves continually and before I build any project the first thing I do is establish a flat face on my jointer.  I could use my long hand plane like when I first got started using winding sticks and my marking gauge.  With a lot of practice and a lot of time, I could get a flat face and a 90 degree edge but, with my 8" long bed jointer with carbide knives my jointer plane sits and looks nice on the shelf.

Jack

 

[zapdafish]

i edge joint with my tracksaw   I only face joint with my jointer

 

[MichaelW2014]

thank you all for the comments that are allowing me to learn more every day.

But I am a tad confused not only about the process of making lumber stock true, but also about the terminology--terms such as "face jointing", "edge jointing", "planing", etc. If there is an official dictionary for wood working lingo that would be great--please let me know. Same goes for the process of making lumber true.

I would like to get this all down pat once and for all. 

thanks again

 

[SittingElf]

Lets use a typical 2X6 piece of Pine Lumber you buy at the Big Lot store

Edge jointing refers to the 2" sides.  You only need to joint one side and make a perfectly straight edge. You then take the board to your bandsaw (or Tracksaw) and line up the newly jointed edge with your fence. A cut to your final width with the jointed side riding the fence will give you a true parallel edge on both sides.

Jointing the 6" side of the lumber is called face jointing. You are looking to end up with one completely flat side. This can take a number of passes over the jointer depending on how bowed, or rough the lumber is.

Once you have fully flat side, that is placed into the planer with the newly flat side running the opposite side of the blades. It is run through the planer (Thickneser in England) repeatedly until you have the thickness of the lumber you plan to work with.

Other boards are done the same way on the jointer, and finished on the planer to match thicknesses amongst all the boards you are using for a project.

Look up Jointing and Planing on YouTube.  There are probably at least a hundred "How To's" on this subject.

Hope this helps you understand....  

Cheers,

Frank
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[Birdhunter]

Vacuum question.....

A shop vac doesn't move enough air to work with a 6" or larger jointer or planer. These machines produce a lot of chips/dust and a strong cyclone system is needed to pull them away from the cutter heads.

 

[MichaelW2014]

i think i get it. but if i am using boards that can be stood up on my table saw then i don't need a thicknesser, right? i could just use this machine to make all the sides square, perfectly perpendicular to each other?

http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-platinum6_2

let's say i am buying a bunch of 2x4" beams at the local lumber store. from these i need to make a bunch of smaller beams. i don't need a thicknesser, do I?

 

[MichaelW2014]

Vacuum question.....

A shop vac doesn't move enough air to work with a 6" or larger jointer or planer. These machines produce a lot of chips/dust and a strong cyclone system is needed to pull them away from the cutter heads.

what's a good dust collection machine for pairing with this jointer: http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-platinum6_2

 

[SittingElf]

i think i get it. but if i am using boards that can be stood up on my table saw then i don't need a thicknesser, right? i could just use this machine to make all the sides square, perfectly perpendicular to each other?

http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-platinum6_2

let's say i am buying a bunch of 2x4" beams at the local lumber store. from these i need to make a bunch of smaller beams. i don't need a thicknesser, do I?

OK.. if you buy 2X4's, you will find that the thicknesses will vary from end to end. Use a set of calipers and you will see.

In order to have and make quality products you MUST start with two out of four sides of ANY lumber being absolutely flat. No need if you just need framing lumber, but for fine products, there is no option unless you really don't care about top quality finished work.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[SittingElf]

Vacuum question.....

A shop vac doesn't move enough air to work with a 6" or larger jointer or planer. These machines produce a lot of chips/dust and a strong cyclone system is needed to pull them away from the cutter heads.

what's a good dust collection machine for pairing with this jointer: http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-platinum6_2

First off, I like Laguna Tools, and I own some of their excellent products, but there is a very strong likelyhood that you won't end up being happy with 6" in the long run.   If I were in your shoes...(and I WAS some time ago), I'd start off with a good quality, but less expensive 8" like those from Grizzly. They are also straight knife jointers, and I owned one for a number of years before upgrading to my Hammer A3-41 16" jointer/planer.

You can buy a Grizzly jointer, and a Delta or DeWalt portable planers and be able to accomplish a LOT.  

As for Dust Collectors, a 1.5 to 2 HP Bag unit will do you just fine as a start, and not very expensive (Grizzly has some pretty good ones cheap). Later, a full cyclone system may be in you future if you start needing significantly more dust collection.

I use my Cyclone DC for my heavy machines. (TableSaw, Drill Press with a big hood, Jointer/Planer, Router Table, and both bandsaws). I use the Festool CT36 for all my sanding and most other Festool power tools because they produce smaller chips and dust.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[MichaelW2014]

please tell me if this plan is correct:

i buy 2x4" beams at the store.
i use my jointer to make the sides of the beams perpendicular.
i then cut the 2x4" beams on my table saw to the sizes i need. such as 1"x1.5"

 

[MichaelW2014]

Vacuum question.....

A shop vac doesn't move enough air to work with a 6" or larger jointer or planer. These machines produce a lot of chips/dust and a strong cyclone system is needed to pull them away from the cutter heads.

what's a good dust collection machine for pairing with this jointer: http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-platinum6_2

First off, I like Laguna Tools, and I own some of their excellent products, but their is a very strong likelyhood that you won't end up being happy with 6" in the long run.   If I were in your shoes...(and I WAS some time ago), I'd start off with a good quality, but less expensive 8" like those from Grizzly. They are also straight knife jointers, and I owned one for a number of years before upgrading to my Hammer A3-41 16" jointer/planer.

You can buy a Grizzly jointer, and a Delta or DeWalt portable planers and be able to accomplish a LOT. 

As for Dust Collectors, a 1.5 to 2 HP Bag unit will do you just fine as a start, and not very expensive (Grizzly has some pretty good ones cheap). Later, a full cyclone system may be in you future if you start needing significantly more dust collection.

I use my Cyclone DC for my heavy machines. (TableSaw, Drill Press with a big hood, Jointer/Planer, Router Table, and both bandsaws). I use the Festool CT36 for all my sanding and most other Festool power tools because they produce smaller chips and dust.

Cheers,

Frank

yes, 8" would be good. but i am working in a dedicated room in an apartment. yikes. also, i am in athens, greece, and i don't think grizzly has a distributor here. laguna and hammer and others are in europe, as you probably know. the thing is, i don't plan to build much. i am just mostly concerned with making elaborate frames and panels for my paintings. also, i will be making some furniture for my home. no building at all. at the moment i truly can't imagine ever needing a bigger space than 6". most of my work will be with 2x4's or 4x4's that i will cut down into small bars.

 

[tbellemare]

A jointer is used to make any surface flat/planar.

A planer (thickness planer/thicknesser) is used to create a surface at a given thickness from another surface. If the reference surface is wonky, the planed surface can be wonky.

If you have a big enough planer jointer, you can make the first face (widest surface) flat. You can use that flat surface as a reference to use the planer (thickness planer/thicknesser) to make a parallel, flat surface at a given thickness from the originally flattened surface.

After that, you can size the piece using any saw that can cut 90 degrees to a flat surface.

There are many ways to skin a cat!

The bigger the project, the bigger the tools, typically. One can get by with smaller tools and more tedious technique for bigger jobs but in assemblies, tolerances are stacked...

Tom

EDIT:
Edited to change planer to jointer.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=11pt]

Right tool, right job, and this is an occasion  (with exception earlier this year of Seth's suggestion of using a track saw) when this certainly applies.

Or do it with hand planes!  [eek]

 

[Birdhunter]

please tell me if this plan is correct:

i buy 2x4" beams at the store.
i use my jointer to make the sides of the beams perpendicular.
i then cut the 2x4" beams on my table saw to the sizes i need. such as 1"x1.5"

Step 1. Look at the 2x4s at the store and select only those that are straight. Many will be twisted and bent. You would have to remove too much wood with jointer and planer to end up with a straight board. Be choosy, it's your money.

Step 2. Cut the 2x4s to approximately the lengths (a little longer) assuming you want pieces longer than a foot or so. The reason is that straightening a short board wastes less material than straightening a long board. Pieces shorter than 12" are dangerous to work with on jointers and planers and table saws.

Step 3. Pencil a zig zag pattern across one flat side and across one short side of each board. Be sure the marks cover edges and ends as well as the middle of the boards.

Step 4. Run one flat side of each board across the jointer with it set to remove about 1/16" of material. The pencil marks will all be gone and the board will lay flat on the jointer table when you have it right. It may take several passes.

Step 5. Be sure the jointer fence is set to 90 degrees from the bed.

Step 6. Place the already flattened side against the fence with the short side with the pencil marks down on the bed.

Step 7. With pressure keeping the wood against the fence, run the short side through the planer until all the pencil marks are gone.

Step 8. Make a zig zag pencil mark all over the long side of the board opposite the side you jointed.

Step 9. Run the board through a place set to take 1/16" off until all the pencil marks are gone.

Now the long sides are flat and parallel and one short side is square to the two long sides. You can now use your table saw to rip the boards to the desired width. Of course, you want the jointed short side up against the table saw fence.

I use push stuck sand feather boards for every operation on the jointer and the table saw.

The reason for cutting the boards a little long is that most planers snipe (make a slightly deeper cut) at both ends of a board. If you can trim off these ends, you have perfect boards.

Good luck.