Why do we put back panels in base cabinets anyway?

I was taught to add a nailer outside the 1/4-inch back to serve two purposes - makes the 1/4-inch become structural and gives meat to attach the cabinet to the walls.  I do this on all lower and uppers and usually behind fixed shelves as well.  On vanities I use only a nailer and skip the back primarily for ease of install. Sometimes I don't add a back panel to drawer bases in built-ins if the wall behind is finished.

Slot for the quartet inch panel is 1/2-inch in, I always use 1/2 nailers. 

0957b538d4d6961894839798e568d327.jpg


Since walls aren't straight, having a back keeps crap from falling in the crack...basically containment.

Matt
 
Scorpion said:
I was taught to add a nailer outside the 1/4-inch back to serve two purposes - makes the 1/4-inch become structural and gives meet to attach the cabinet to the walls.  I do this on all lower and uppers and usually behind fixed shelves as well.  On vanities I use only a nailer and skip the back primarily for ease of install. Sometimes I don't add a back panel to drawer bases in built-ins if the wall behind is finished.

Slot for the quartet inch panel is 1/2-inch in, I always use 1/2 nailers. 

0957b538d4d6961894839798e568d327.jpg


Since walls aren't straight, having a back keeps crap from falling in the crack...basically containment.

Matt
.rh

This is the right way to build cabinets.  If I have a bigger cabinet I will use 1/2 on the back panel.  Thanks Matt for the pictures!
 
Richard/RMW said:
Aside from the urge to make an enclosed box, what other purpose does the back panel serve? I don't think I ever see the rear of a base cabinet, 90% of ours have drawers or pull-outs anyway. To see the rear panel I have to be on my knees.

I don't see any structural reason to have the rear panel since the cabinets are fastened to the wall anyway. I guess they may prevent/reduce accumulation of inside the cabinet.

Am I missing something?

RMW

I have been woodworking for close to 50 years For the last 24 years I have been making a living at it. I learned a long time ago that woodworking is a lot more fun if I build things the way I want to, instead of worrying about why others do things a certain way.

Most all woodworkers today do almost everything the same way, because all of the how to books, magazines & seminars say that is the way to do things.  I learned woodworking in a time when there were very few  if any how to books, magazines or seminars. Trial & error is an amazing learning tool & was considered a good thing years ago. 
 
Base cabinets don't need a back under most circumstances.  A nail board and a secured squared bottom will keep the cabinet square and sturdy.  Seal any openings between the cabinet and wall.  No need to waste material or add more weight.  Note, I tongue and grove 3/4" plywood so my base is sturdy with only a nail board needed.  If I used smaller ply then I might switch to a full back.

 
JD2720 said:
...is a lot more fun if I build things the way I want to, instead of worrying about why others do things a certain way.

...Trial & error is an amazing learning tool & was considered a good thing years ago.

Completely agree!!  A creative side is what brings us new ideas and artistic creations to enjoy.  All of us should encourage those within the craft to use it when possible.  I believe we should also encourage research and/or training to make sure we build creatively and safely.  The structure of a vanity that's going to support a solid surface slab must be strong enough to support it and the wife who decides to stand on it to change a light bulb.  I can build another vanity.

Trial and error has been a cornerstone of my learning over the years.  Understanding the acceptable amount of risk in the trial, and understanding the consequences of the potential error are important. 
 
I build all bases and cabinets with a back panel except for the one that will house the sink. The main reason for the back panel is to keep the area clean and free of vermin (this is, after all, where you will store food and all the implements to prep and serve it). It also happens to help the case square and prevent racking. The sink base could have a back panel, but there is the inconvenience factor of drilling holes for the sink drain and water supply in exactly the right spot.

But most importantly, I build cabinets with back panels because they look better and more professional with it on, and this is what clients expect.
 
socaljohn said:
Hey Eric,

Is the drawer front painted black or is that an Ebony stain?
Are the sides solid wood or ply?
If ply, was the top edge banded or just polyed?

On another front, how bout them Buckeyes?

[member=23457]socaljohn[/member]

The drawer fronts are stained with Rust-Oleum Ultimate Wood Stain, the color is Kona. 
The sides are 1/2" maple plywood with Fastcap Fastedge unfinished real wood maple edge banding.

O-H-I-O BABY !!!    [wink]

Eric
 
Thanks for the responses to my original question. I have to admit a mild surprise in seeing 20+ responses in one day. Great feedback and several take-aways:

I get that professionals would use backs because it appears more professional/finished. That was why I was initially leery of omitting them, it just does not look like I expect a first class product to look. Some of this is probably just my preconceptions, since nearly all cabinets have backs.

I also get the cleanliness argument, although in our case these are utility cabinets in the laundry area so food is not an issue. We also have zero interior pest issues, probably because (1) we have a quarterly pest service (2) the house has spray foam insulation (sealed up tight as a drum) and (3) we are persnickety about keeping it clean. In other circumstances I can see this being more of an issue.

I see less need for backs to preventing racking, since ultimately the cabinet will be screwed to the wall, and shimmed true if needed. Backs certainly would limit racking, but it's probably not the main reason they are widely used.

After considering all the comments and pondering it a bit more, I plan to omit backs in the base cabinets, save a few bucks on material and cut out a couple operations. I will not omit the backs in upper cabinets, simply because I would see that every time I open them.

Thanks again, as always great feedback from fellow FOGer's!

RMW
 
last two kitchens I built the sides and backs are 16 mm (5/8) prefinished birch, back is screwed on, sides 4 domino and 5 screws. One or two extra sheets of material don't mean much in a whole kitchen. Cabinets very solid, I like them better for heavy granite tops.

BW
 
Bob Wolfe said:
last two kitchens I built the sides and backs are 16 mm (5/8) prefinished birch, back is screwed on, sides 4 domino and 5 screws. One or two extra sheets of material don't mean much in a whole kitchen. Cabinets very solid, I like them better for heavy granite tops.

BW
  I was wondering when someone might bring up the weight of a countertop as an issue.....  Good call  [smile]
 
Cos the unpainted plastered wall behind it looks crap, plus nothing falls off the back of the shelf if there's a backboard.

Oh and more importantly, because if I see that someone has missed that simple detail out I might be less inclined to pay them the full amount. I would expect (and won't complain at) the same type of work inspection in return.

Sheesh, do the job properly.
 
demographic said:
Cos the unpainted plastered wall behind it looks crap, plus nothing falls off the back of the shelf if there's a backboard.

Oh and more importantly, because if I see that someone has missed that simple detail out I might be less inclined to pay them the full amount. I would expect (and won't complain at) the same type of work inspection in return.

Sheesh, do the job properly.

Who's to say what is proper and what isn't?

Doing the job properly is following the guidelines set forth at the time the contract is set and any codes that pertain to the job.  Beyond that, "properly" is somewhat subjective as long as whatever is built is structurally safe.

A base cabinet does not need a full back to be structurally sound and it is an acceptable practice.
 
Instead of talking down to people like one way of approaching a job is right and another way is wrong less just qualify the differences here.  The client, budget and environment will dictate what is built, how it's built and with what materials it's built out of.  Saving $100 or more will mean much more to some people than others.  Now some contractors choose not to work under certain constraints but other do.  That doesn't make one contractor right and the other one wrong as long as what is built is safe and follows any codes that might apply.
 
My  [2cents] is that putting a back panel in a new kitchen install is absolute bog standard basic good practice. To leave it out and steal a few bucks is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

1) It adds some rigidity, especially if stone countertops are used.

2) It helps reduce (didn't say stop, but reduce) the critters getting in the cupboard, such as spiders, beetles, insects, etc.

3) It will keep more dust out as even the cleanest homes get dust bunnies under cabinets.

4) It just improves the look and fit/finish.

5) It will stop small objects falling out the back.

If I came across someone not installing backs in base cabinets I would just think them a complete cowboy.
 
Greg M said:
That doesn't make one contractor right and the other one wrong as long as what is built is safe and follows any codes that might apply.

Simply meeting code means doing the minimum necessary to avoid jail time and fines.

I spent two and a half excruciating years working for a small woodshop in a large institution.  I was the youngest person there by ten years, and the only one on staff that had professionally built cabinets and countertops prior to working for the corporation.  Everyone else had a history of building decks or fences or pouring concrete or being related to an administrator, but no woodworking experience.  Everyone built cabinets according to folklore based on the work of people who made it up as they went along.

The horror.  I saw cabinets built without backs, drawers with particleboard bottoms stapled to the sides from underneath, and white latex primer used instead of edgeband.  When edgeband was used, it was cut from sheets of laminate on a table saw, applied to assembled cabinets with contact cement, then flush-trimmed and filed in place.  It was not uncommon for work orders for office cabinetry to take six months or more to be completed.  In some cases the person that ordered cabinets didn't even work for the corporation anymore.  After spending two days building cabinets for an office only to find out the office no longer existed, it became my policy to meet with the person that submitted the work order, just to be sure they still needed what they ordered.

When I would build cabinets the way I was taught, the shop manager would get angry.  I shifted my schedule so I would be working after he left, lest he see me utilizing 20th century methods in his woodshop.  He chewed me out for dadoing drawer sides and using edgeband.  I'd have to do it in secret when he was gone.  I learned workarounds for purchasing so I could order the correct materials.  It was more like Kelly's Heroes than New Yankee Workshop.

There really aren't certifications or licenses for cabinetmakers here.  Any hack that builds a box can call themselves a cabinetmaker, unlike a plumber or electrician.  Standards and codes are minimal, where they exist.  All you have to stand on is your reputation.  So while it might be subjective to say that one way of building a cabinet is wrong, that judgement is probably based on experience and best practices, not a codified definition of what is minimally acceptable.
 
I'll tell you fanboy sites are impossible sometimes (stress sometimes).  Other fanboy sites are the same way. However, fanboy sites are still very useful but usually end up costing you a LOT of money [eek]

What kind of places are you guys installing these cabinets?

Locks14 said:
My  [2cents] is that putting a back panel in a new kitchen install is absolute bog standard basic good practice. To leave it out and steal a few bucks is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

1) It adds some rigidity, especially if stone countertops are used.

2) It helps reduce (didn't say stop, but reduce) the critters getting in the cupboard, such as spiders, beetles, insects, etc.

3) It will keep more dust out as even the cleanest homes get dust bunnies under cabinets.

4) It just improves the look and fit/finish.

5) It will stop small objects falling out the back.  If there is a gap between a cabinet and the wall just seal the gap.

If I came across someone not installing backs in base cabinets I would just think them a complete cowboy.

1 - Cabinets secured to other cabinets and to the wall are very rigid without full backs
2 - Do you not fix walls with holes or that aren't sealed before installing the cabinets?  You do know it's code.  All penetrations are to be sealed for both rodent control and fire.  You're actually breaking code if you simply cover up openings that aren't sealed.  It's not just the plumber's and electrician's responsibility because that's also in the building code.  That code applies to everyone wether you work under a permit or not.
3 - How in the world is this going to happen if you've got a cabinet flush up against a proper wall?  Simply seal the inside of the cabinet at the wall.
4 - Fit and finish?  We're talking about the back of base cabinets against a finished wall.  Really, most homeowners rarely even see the wall in the back of the base cabinets, never mind care about it.  However, this is where you need to know your client, does he or she care.
5 - I would never install a cabinet up against a wall that was that far out or damaged without insuring that things couldn't fall behind the cabinet.

WastedP said:
Greg M said:
That doesn't make one contractor right and the other one wrong as long as what is built is safe and follows any codes that might apply.

Simply meeting code means doing the minimum necessary to avoid jail time and fines.

I spent two and a half excruciating years working for a small woodshop in a large institution.  I was the youngest person there by ten years, and the only one on staff that had professionally built cabinets and countertops prior to working for the corporation.  Everyone else had a history of building decks or fences or pouring concrete or being related to an administrator, but no woodworking experience.  Everyone built cabinets according to folklore based on the work of people who made it up as they went along.

The horror.  I saw cabinets built without backs, drawers with particleboard bottoms stapled to the sides from underneath, and white latex primer used instead of edgeband.  When edgeband was used, it was cut from sheets of laminate on a table saw, applied to assembled cabinets with contact cement, then flush-trimmed and filed in place.  It was not uncommon for work orders for office cabinetry to take six months or more to be completed.  In some cases the person that ordered cabinets didn't even work for the corporation anymore.  After spending two days building cabinets for an office only to find out the office no longer existed, it became my policy to meet with the person that submitted the work order, just to be sure they still needed what they ordered.

When I would build cabinets the way I was taught, the shop manager would get angry.  I shifted my schedule so I would be working after he left, lest he see me utilizing 20th century methods in his woodshop.  He chewed me out for dadoing drawer sides and using edgeband.  I'd have to do it in secret when he was gone.  I learned workarounds for purchasing so I could order the correct materials.  It was more like Kelly's Heroes than New Yankee Workshop.

There really aren't certifications or licenses for cabinetmakers here.  Any hack that builds a box can call themselves a cabinetmaker, unlike a plumber or electrician.  Standards and codes are minimal, where they exist.  All you have to stand on is your reputation.  So while it might be subjective to say that one way of building a cabinet is wrong, that judgement is probably based on experience and best practices, not a codified definition of what is minimally acceptable.

Actually the codes require a minimum standard that must be followed to ensure safety.

While I understand what you're talking about the way they put together cabinets is hardly the same as not installing a full back to a base cabinet.  You're trying to compare an overall very poor cabinet to one that simply doesn't have a full back on it.

You guys (meaning in general) seem to be making a federal case out of probably the least important detail in making base cabinets!!!  Not paying someone, calling people hacks or cowboys in a derogatory way for simply stating that full backs aren't always needed does not promote logical reasonable discussion.

Of coarse if the walls aren't in decent shape and at least close to square then that needs to be addressed.  That sometimes means that putting full backs on the base cabinets would be the easiest way to address the problem.  However, that isn't always the case.  Full backs simply are not always needed.

I haven't put a full back in any sink base or vanity that I've made yet.  It's far easier to fix the wall instead of dealing with a full back.  Of coarse I'm also the one doing the electrical and plumbing so I'm looking out for the other trades while I'm building and installing the cabinets.

Now if the customer states they want all cabinets to have wood backs in them then that's what they'll get.
 
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